The Franken-Can: R2D2 goes back to the future

Discussion in 'DIY' started by ccotenj, Mar 20, 2010.

  1. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    now that a few helpful members in the ewave thread have provided me with "proof of concept" of an idea i had and the donor has been gutted, it's time for my first build thread... hopefully, it will meet a happy and reasonably prompt conclusion... :)

    disclaimer: i know nothing about building speakers. i understand the concept of how they work, and what the "basic" specs mean. but to me, a crossover is something i adjust. i have no clue how they actually work. so, no words are too small... :)

    i was directed to the ewave thread by a poster at avs when i posted a question about making a speaker for a jukebox that i'm turning into an ipod dock... they provided me with an nice easy solution, and are thinking about potential other ones... not only that, they also provided a few other ideas for potential "add ons" to the jukebox... all of this begat the "franken-can"...

    how it began:

    this started by me acquiring a seeburg 148 (aka trashcan) jukebox with the intention of turning it into an ipod dock... it can generously be described as "restorable, with most pieces there"...

    [​IMG]

    since i don't plan on making the actual jukebox mechanism work (other than the buttons), i don't have to do the difficult part of the restore... i just need to work on the actual cabinet to "restore" it... clean it, repaint it, etc. the only "mechanical" part i have to make work from the donor are the button assemblies, and that should just be a matter of taking them apart and cleaning them...

    i realized that i would need a speaker and figured i could do a lot better than re-coning what was in there... got directed to the ewave thread... got speaker idea... got other ideas for "enhancements" to the can...
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  2. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    so that brings me to the present...

    here's where i want to go...

    - make the juke look good... i can handle that part on my own... all that takes is elbow grease and money... all of the parts needed (plastics, mirrors, etc.) are available... the chromed stuff can be re-chromed... that part should be reasonably "easy"...

    - make the juke sound good... here's where i throw myself upon the mercy of the ak members... a member suggested the "standard" ewave solution, and that looks like it might be the easiest, most straightforward way to go... zilch also is thinking about a couple other options that i'm sure will be intriguing...

    - it will function as an ipod dock, streaming point and possibly a few other things...

    - since i will have multiple sources and require amplification and volume control, it would be nice if i could end up using an integrated amp that i already have (pioneer a35r) to power the speaker... that way the only circuit i'd have to build (other than the crossover) would be a really easy one to sum the stereo input to mono...

    the above is what i will call "franken-can version 1" (or fcv1 for short)...

    the guys in the ewave thread proposed options like adding a touch-screen and a few other nifty ideas... so i'm hoping for some participation from others... i am open to any and all ideas... not just for the speaker, but for the juke itself...

    for example, i'm going to need a circuit that will control the lights and "animation" (animation in 1948 wasn't what we consider animation today :) )... i figure there has to be some type of ic based circuit that will turn lights off and on/blink them/etc... but (again), i have no idea of where to start, other than googling (which has at least taught me that these ic's actually exist)... the problem with googling is that i come across SO much information, i get lost in it all... :sigh:
     
  3. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    now for some pictures

    stage 1 of the project was to gut the donor... knowing that parts of it hadn't been apart for over 60 years, i liberally applied liquid wrench to all visible screws... as i would come to find out, there were some that were invisible at first because they were covered with so much rust... i would also come to find out that some of them just wouldn't come out, and extreme measures were required (drilling)...

    the whole thing has to come apart, so might as well start with the door...

    [​IMG]

    door after woofer and inside skin has been removed...

    [​IMG]

    the inside... all of this stuff has gotta come out....

    [​IMG]

    record changing mechanism unit removed...

    [​IMG]

    the unit itself... a pretty amazing bit of engineering this kit is... glad i don't have to rebuild it though...

    [​IMG]
     
  4. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    continued...

    shelf removed... now we can get at the amplifier and control unit...

    [​IMG]

    coin box removed...

    [​IMG]

    amplifier and control unit removed... empty at last...

    [​IMG]

    top with dome removed...

    [​IMG]

    those lightbulbs they used in these old machines ran HOT... literally blackened the area around their mounting points...

    [​IMG]
     
  5. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    Phase 1 complete

    so "phase 1" of the project, which was:

    a) get "proof of concept" that a speaker design was possible. not only did i get proof of concept, but a complete solution was given to me, and other ideas might potentially percolate...

    and

    b) gut the donor...

    is complete and successful... many more pictures of the disassembly and the parts as they came out can be found at this link

    on to phase 2...

    phase 2 will be...

    a) strip the "can", fix any obvious bends/gouges and prime it so it's prepped for painting...

    b) strip the grill... this is completely covered with rust, so it will likely occupy me for awhile...

    c) begin to finalize a speaker selection...

    d) conceptualize a solution to making the lights and animation work...
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  6. shelly_d

    shelly_d Not An Audiophool

    Messages:
    5,374
    Location:
    Alameda CA
    Here is a thought for you to consider. You could put 2 small full range speakers in it, one for each channel of a stereo amp and a dual voice coil subwoofer, one coil wired to each channel. No electronics needed to combine channels and yet keep the 2 channels separate at the source. A nice, small "full range" like this
    [​IMG]

    http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_241_282&products_id=276

    isn't a budget buster and could make the project easier:

    Just a suggestion.
     
  7. Urchinn

    Urchinn AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,808
    Man, I wish you luck with everything. I love those jukeboxes! Can't wait to hear which discs you load it up with.
     
  8. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    thanks shelly...

    like i said, i'm open to any and all ideas... but like i also said, i've got no clue now to do "stuff", so i'll ask...

    how would i implement something like in your post? i.e. cabinet, crossover, etc.
     
  9. mashaffer

    mashaffer Super Member

    Messages:
    3,192
    Location:
    North Central Indiana
    Is that original speaker toast? The iron on the amp usable? If they have any life in them you may be able to finance your project in part by selling parts.

    mike
     
  10. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    @urchinn... thanks! it's going to be fun...

    @mashaffer... original speaker needs to be re-coned, at the very least...

    not sure on the amp condition either... i have a couple others of unknown source as well... haven't disassembled any of the 3 to see what's going on in there yet...

    i didn't dare put electricity to the thing in the condition it was in... :) i was visualizing tubes exploding and flames shooting out... :lmao:

    i was kinda thinking along those lines as well, re: selling stuff to help finance... someone (or ones) will want at least some of the stuff... and whatever doesn't go after a period of time can i'll drag to the metal recycler and take what i can get...

    @all... can someone point me to a link that would describe a speaker set up the way shelly noted (2 full range and a subwoofer)?
     
  11. Stuart Pedaso

    Stuart Pedaso In too deep Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,106
    Location:
    Solano County
    Implementing Shelly_d's idea would probably be the quickest and easiest approach:

    Divide the space behind the door into separate compartments. Mount the subwoofer into one at the bottom and wide range drivers into one (or two, if you want separate chambers) above.

    Then wire the drivers from your amplifier through a subwoofer crossover:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (This example found here).

    Build your own, or ready-made sub crossovers are available from many sources. Just run wire from your amplifier's speaker terminals to the crossover "input" terminals, then from the satellite "output" terminals to your wide range drivers. Wires that are usually already attached connect to your dual voice coil subwoofer.

    Speaker selection is a matter of measuring the enclosure volume and examining prospective driver Thiele/Small parameters for ones that work in the available space. Also match up sensitivity for even response between sub and upper range drivers. You can expect lots of help here from AK members.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. westend

    westend Audiopile Subscriber

    Messages:
    9,849
    Location:
    Shorewood MN
    I like the dual single-driver approach but would use something shielded like these 127e's or these FR125's. Two enclosures, yes, and they can be small. Mounting the boxes and the subwoofer should be an easy task. An alternative could be two waveguides and compression drivers with woofers.

    If the OP can find a preamp or integrated amp with remote, the deal is almost done, the most difficult, IMO, part remaining, integrating a display of system and track selections. I would almost forgo this part (mainly because I know how my OCD would drive this part of the project into the realm of Hoover Dam scale). It can certainly be done and the processing hardware is out there. There will be power supply considerations and, if incorporating the push buttons, wiring to fathom.

    I was looking at the amp that ws in the jukebox and I would suggest that the OP not disassemble any of it before he can get an approximation of value and condition. This would also hold true for the speaker. Some of these parts can hold exceptional value to a collector/restorer.
    Good luck with your jukebox project and keep up the good work with the pics. This is a relly cool project.:thmbsp:
     
  13. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    ok, mount speakers in box, check...

    wire amplifier output to sub crossover, check...

    speaker selection... theile/small parameters? no check... :) so i'm definitely expecting lots of help here...

    if it helps with speaker selection... this will be on my first floor, which is basically a 17X40 open space...

    btw, two things i should have mentioned upfront...

    - my woodworking skills are minimal (at best) and my woodworking tools are even more minimal... so anything more than a simple box, i'd probably have to get made for me... assuming i can find someone nearby to do it, that's not a problem...

    - i have a reasonably decent sized budget for this particular project...
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  14. Tripqzon

    Tripqzon Super Member

    Messages:
    3,274
    Location:
    Maine
    I will be watching this thread with great interest.

    You've got a lot of work ahead of you but the rewards should be well worth it.
     
  15. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    1) ok, cool, i won't take them apart... i wasn't looking forward to that anyway... i've removed enough rusted in screws in the last couple days to last me awhile... :)

    2) i have an integrated amp that i would actually like to use... it's a pioneer a35r... if i can use an integrated amp with this, it eliminates a LOT of work...

    3) as far as selection/display goes...

    to use the buttons: i should be able to "black box" it to have the buttons control a playlist with up to 20 selections... the actual wiring and signaling of the buttons isn't that "difficult"... cleaning the button assembly, otoh, is going to be a "fun" task...

    - however, here's what i think might be a "winner", at least for fcv1, and it still allows for incorporation of the buttons as part of the control mechanism...

    there are 4 "banks" of buttons, with 2 banks on each side of the coin slot, and 5 buttons in each bank...

    i could "steal" the area that one bank of buttons takes up and mount an itouch in there... 2nd gen ones (which is all i would need for this) are pretty cheap on craigslist... it actually would fit almost perfectly...

    i have an apple tv sitting around doing nothing... i can put that in the juke and give it access to my main itunes library (which is shared on a wireless network)... the apple tv would feed the integrated amp..

    i could then use the apple "remote" app on the itouch to control the appletv... this would then give me access to my entire itunes library directly from the panel of the juke...

    this approach also has the advantage of being able to control the juke from any device running the "remote" app... so i would have built in remote control for it...

    i could then use the remaining buttons for "other" things, like on/off switch, control of the lcd lights, etc.
     
  16. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    side note: if i can figure out how, i'll change the title of this thread to add "or other new speaker", since the speaker options have expanded...
     
  17. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    cool! occasional encouragement if (when?) i hit the rough spots would be appreciated as well... :)

    i believe it will be well worth it as well... this is turning out to be a bit larger of a project than originally envisioned (buy juke, slam in ipod dock, slam in powered monitor, call it a day), but if i'm going to put the time and money into making it look good, it makes sense to put the time and money into making it sound good too...

    plus the journey is going to be a fun one... :D i've already learned an incredible amount over the last couple days from reading this forum...
     
  18. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    for discussion's sake...

    let's say that we went with a pair of the fr125's that you note in that post... two small enclosures should be do-able... :)

    what direction would you then go for the woofer?
     
  19. westend

    westend Audiopile Subscriber

    Messages:
    9,849
    Location:
    Shorewood MN
    I was rethinking the speaker application for this after you posted the size of your room and the amplifier you wish to use.
    There is nothing wrong about using the FR125 in this application but (and here is where i do an about-face) the room size is the critical part. The smallish full rangers won't be as good solution as other possible speaker implementations. If you wish to have a jammin' jukebox and have a room that is as big as stated, you''l need something that can fill that space.
    Compression drivers would fit the bill but you would have to have an elegant design to insure that stereo separation is all that it can be. The addition of a dipole arrangement (side firing drivers) might do this also but increases cost and complexity. It might be possible to orient two of these: Selenium drivers and any of the de rigueur waveguides from the econowave thread into the front. One would have to be aware of the possible disruptions in presentation caused by the close placement of the waveguides. Here is where Zilch and his crew could add in their knowledge about polar plots and correct implementation. I believe it can be done.

    The low end could be handled by a woofer that is efficient enough to mate with the Seleniums and has the ability to be mounted in a box that fits the size of the jukebox cavity. Again, there are different things you could do here, depending on budget and type of presentation needed. Maybe an 8" woofer to handle the lower BW up to the compression drivers pass band and a side firing 12" woofer to deliver the lower octaves. Lots of different designs can be done. For a budget conscious design, maybe two of these Peerless woofers or one of the Dayton woofers in sealed cabinets on angled baffles within the juke enclosure.
    The crossover could be very simple and there are a number of guys here to help you with that. Maybe there is a stock crossover that fits in with this design, probably.
    I would suggest to keep restoring and others will chime in about an even better design :D. This project is going to have a lot of interest, methinks.
     
  20. ccotenj

    ccotenj Member

    ok, i think i understand all of that... and i'll continue away at the elbow grease part of the job... :)

    some feedback from me... and now i'm realizing i should have reserved a post at the beginning of this thread to keep track of things... :sigh:

    1) as far as the room itself... i should clarify a bit... although it's indeed 17X40 (technically the kitchen is a 'separate' room, but the entryway is 40 inches wide, so i figure sound waves don't think that's a separate room :) ), when i say i want to fill that space, i mean "be able to hear it at a decent volume" not "70's disco"... :D

    also, the great majority of the time, we'll be "close" to it... picture the floor layout as 3 17X13 rectangles... virtually all of the time it's in use, the listener will be in the "middle" or "left" rectangle... the middle rectangle is where the recliners and tv live... that's where it wants to sound the best (and also where it will live)... the left rectangle is the kitchen... it only has to function as "background sound" there... the right rectangle is the "dining room" (and is where the entry door to the house is)... that space almost never gets used, other than to walk through it... when it does get used, it would only require "low level" background sound...

    2) i have a ton of room inside the actual jukebox itself to work with... and since i am missing the back door of the juke (and they are made of unobtanium, so i'm unlikely to ever have one), the rear of it will remain "open" like you see in the pics...

    3) my original plan was to not put the inside skin of the door back on... besides eliminating the painful process of doing so, this would allow me to be able to get the front of the speaker flush with the "back flat part" of front door opening... the "curved front part" is where the grill flushes up against...

    the size of the opening in the grill is 13"X28"... a portion of the bottom 6 inches is blocked, but that can be modified if necessary...

    top view of inside of door opening...

    [​IMG]

    the grill as seen from the outside...

    [​IMG]

    close up shot of "space" between grill and inside of door opening...

    [​IMG]
     

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