damacman
Resident Psycho
Sold it in '97 . . .
The most aggressive sounding amplifier?
- Thread starter LordLunatic
- Start date
whoaru99
Epic Member
I find the problem like this is more usually the speakers than the amp.
whoaru99
Epic Member
In addition to Crowns, I'd suggest something like the QSC PLX series. I'm pretty happy with the SQ of those I have and deliver plenty of clean power.
In fact, I brought my QSC PL236 to addition the Thiel CS3.6 speakers I bought some years back. While the seller didn't let on directly I could tell he was reasonably impressed by the little (relatively speaking) black box.
Could be both, those were Klipsh speakers. Klipsh was the best best speakers for disco those days as sub woofer was not out yet. Nobody could touch the bass and bottom like Klipsh when cranked.
Superampman
AK Member
An awesome sounding PA amp is the mighty Altec 9440A. Usually available on the bay for well under a grand. I acquired one from a CAM ad a few years ago. Among the best I've heard of any type. Easily competes at 5X it's cost imo.
whoaru99
Epic Member
I own and use several different pro amps, in addition to my Levinson, Audio Research, Yamaha, etc. other amps. From my experience with these amps in my systems and some others, a big deficiency in the sound typically isn't from the amp as long as it's not too small and being pushed into clipping.
LordLunatic
Member
Essentially what I described: very snappy/hard hitting, as opposed to being "smooth" or "tubey", and with the ability to produce some heavy/powerful bass, whilst of course remaining in control. Essentially I just don't want it to be polite; if the music is gritty, grainy or textured, I want to hear it, and feel it.
SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
Your sound preference fits objectively accurate amps that feature vertical rise, no rounding, and no sagging. Most high powered, non-digital pro amps have these qualities as they are over-built for commercial application to be less likel;y to catch fire. A couple of examples are QSC-1300USA and Crown XLS-802 (non-D).
damacman
Resident Psycho
So ... You're really looking for an amplifier with a real power supply. IE - one that can deliver current even when voltage is not in phase due to the nature of the load. [Research the topics of Power Factor and The AudioGraph PowerCube.]
Regardless of what amp you buy, the wallet opens wider in direct proportion to the robustness of the power supply within it.
LordLunatic
Member
That has always been my thought - my understanding of what people consider accurate has just been skewed a lot by conservative fans of analogue equipment with massive THD and general warm/soft sound, hammering on about how wrong I am, and how I will eventually learn to appreciate the sound of old LP's and tube amps (sort of like when a parent tells their child "its just a phase" in a condescending manner)... Cant stand the stuff... Or rather, its fine, but I by far prefer a clean DSD or Flac version through some well built solid state equipment... But that's enough about the trauma's of the audiophile world
I'll have to look into some of those - what little experience I've had with those types of amps, have been that they were a bit too noisy (with a THD of .5% on the crown I'd be worried about that too). But if one pops up near me at a good price, I might give it a shot. Anything specific to look out for in these more "pro audio" amps?
Yea, my problem is my budget is relatively limited as is - but my father (electrical technician) always taught me to go for the heaviest I can get, which so far has been serving me well. But it seems heavy amps can end up being smooth too, and as a result to my ears less accurate, so that's not entirely reliable in that sense...
The amps I currently have my eyes on, that are available near me are:
Thule IA350B:
An obvious upgrade from my smaller Thule. It delivers 350watts fully balanced into 8Ohm in what's effectively class A (non-switching transformers, and crossover-bias kept above 0). And at 21kg should have a decent psu.
NAD M22:
Seems like a well made amp, that is getting a lot of praise - but being digital I could fear it might be too "cold" sounding, but I can't seem to find a good description/comparison of its sound signature.
Advance X-A220 and Vincent 991Plus:
I love big monoblocks and VU meters, but cant seem to find much info about either.
DK Design Group VS.1 Reference Mk II:
Got a ton of praise at its release - so it might be good? Though I'm not necessarily into the tube pre, or the integrated design on such a big amp.
Finally some of the classic big amps:
Mark Levinson 23
Mark Levinson 331
Krell KAV 500i
Vincent SP 993
Parasound Halo A21
Threshold SA/3
Aragon, 4004 mkII
And lastly Pioneer M22 (there are 3 of them so though they are on the weak side, I might be able to amend that by tri-amping?(my speakers can be quad-amped if need be so I could even find a fourth))
Do any of those stand out to you? The Thule from what I can find might be a good bet, with its massive power and balanced drive, but I'm not sure...
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SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
That has always been my thought - my understanding of what people consider accurate has just been skewed a lot by conservative fans of analogue equipment with massive THD and general warm/soft sound, hammering on about how wrong I am, and how I will eventually learn to appreciate the sound of old LP's and tube amps (sort of like when a parent tells their child "its just a phase" in a condescending manner)... Cant stand the stuff... Or rather, its fine, but I by far prefer a clean DSD or Flac version through some well built solid state equipment... But that's enough about the trauma's of the audiophile world
I'll have to look into some of those - what little experience I've had with those types of amps, have been that they were a bit too noisy (with a THD of .5% on the crown I'd be worried about that too). But if one pops up near me at a good price, I might give it a shot. Anything specific to look out for in these more "pro audio" amps?....
QSC model I like is 1310USA. Here is the manual, see specs.
https://www.qsc.com/resource-files/...continued/usa/q_amp_usa_series_usermanual.pdf
Look for amps with metal die T-03 output transistors, which you will notice are the same type the home makers use. Plastic clad outputs are OK for consumer grade amps but plastic does not dissipate heat which is not good when hammering on. Pro amps are powered by massive transformers, just like the expensive home makers. Cut core like in the QSC is good. Crown uses toroidal which is good as well. Both types pass perfect square waves which by definition cannot be improved upon...from an objective standpoint. The dirty secret in audio is that two amps of the same power class which possess the same wave form output will sound the same. There is nothing in the audio grease that will separate an expensive amp from a cheap pro amp despite what the fan boys will tell you.
I've heard the same "kid stuff" argument from boutique salesmen when I mentioned their expensive floor system sounded dull. "This is audiophile as you have never heard before." Great, I am being pitched which is the nature of retail. This dull rounded sound is coloration introduced into the reproduction chain by any of the links in the audio system. If one applies the strictest definition of distortion, any departure from the source signal is distortion including the signal bending introduced by slow ropey amps and by preamp tone controls. Coloration is unnatural in the sense that real time live sound as produced by a musical instrument or a voice does not possess this coloration as it is produced and heard. This makes real time sound the reference for audio reproduction. For me, this is why pro audio fits my preference.
whoaru99
Epic Member
,
Bear in mind that a THD spec is at one point of power output. It is not unusual for pro amp specs to be published at or near the point of clipping so inherently will show higher THD. That does not mean you have high THD at all points of operation.
A direct comparison in this regard to "audiophile" amps is often nebulous in this regard because audiophile amps are often published with specs at pretty operating points, not necessarily maximum operating point.
LordLunatic
Member
I figure, but for example the NAD M22 is published as 0.003% max across the board - and NAD go into some length explaining this, probably exactly because of the fact that some brands are not quite as honest...
bowtie427ss
Lunatic Member
Lab Gruppen.
SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
Distortion figures are not as important as you think. Sure, low figures are better and a reflection of design and component integrity. However, the threshold for hearing distortion is 1% so a figure of 0.1% may look bad but it is in fact not audible. At rated power output, dB is 120 or greater so that should give some context. If you can hear that distortion, more power to you. I can't. Amplifier THD is one thing but by far the greatest source of distortion comes from speakers. I spoke to a JBL engineer a few moons ago about this. They used to test their own offerings against the competition. They considered 5-7% distortion to be excellent. Some well respected and popular models tested in the teens. Judging by owners' enthusiastic remarks, they have never heard nor disparaged this level of distortion.
LordLunatic
Member
I don't know their distortion levels (dont think they're listed) but my speakers are in fact JBL's - Ti10k. As far as distortion figures go, it merely a matter of past experiences that harmonic distortion often results in that soft dull sound that I dislike, so I try to avoid it where possible, at least on a blind purchase. If a product has higher-than-i-prefer distortion, but I can hear it sounds great none the less, then sure, I'm in, but without hearing it, I don't dare... Too many bad experiences I suppose.
The USA 1310 seems oddly cheap for a 24 kg, 400 watt amplifier... I'm trying to find reviews etc. of it.
SoCal Sam
Lunatic Member
To give some balance to my thoughts, I recognize that not all listeners like objectively accurate sound. Comments I have read are harsh, fatigue inducing, bright, and so on. All are valid perceptions and go to the heart of personal preference. This being said, a lot depends on speaker choice which most do not have the luxury of having a wide selection. I am a over the top in that I have gone through a lot of speakers. I get all of that. In my comments, I always insert the all important qualifier..."for me".
Just had a look at the Ti10k and it looks to be a high quality design with sound to match. I am guessing a high definition amplifier will thrive as the cabinet appears to not generate internal resonance. The drivers are time aligned and have discrete enclosures of varying volumes. I like. However, you will not know if a high def amp like the QSC delivers the sound you are looking for until you have heard the pairing. However, I can say the 1310USA delivers perfect objective reproduction on the o'scope. It is an inexpensive proposition and a great way to experience object accuracy first hand.
I don't know if you are susceptible to the psycho-acoustic aspects of blingy amplifiers. Some can't stand the looks of the same humble PA amp that a garage bands uses. The same will swear the sound is no good for this reason. I get that as well.
LordLunatic
Member
Understanding that one's statements are personal/subjective is a great thing, and allows for proper conversation, rather than what a lot of "audiophile" discussions I've experienced have been, which borders on what you might expect from some form of religious dogma. So I appreciate that!
Great to hear an assertion of the JBL, because I've been very curious how it holds up to current standards - its not that old, but you never know. as you yourself point out, many (myself included) dont have a lot of options in terms of speakers we're able to get, and even less when it comes to one's we can actually demo. I've owned Cerwin Vega XLS215, Dynaudio Contour 1.4, Dynaudio Audience 10 and Kef iQ30. Out of that lot the JBL seems like the best compromise of getting some of the massive sound of the Vegas, the fantastic midrange of the Dynaudio and the detailed treble of the Kef.
As for placebo/objectivity on amps, gear and aesthetics, on one hand, due to my mental-condition (not going into it too much), I'm about as objective/cold as a person can be - that being said, I'm also a designer, and I very much appreciate great looking design and aesthetics, but neither price, looks or personal stakes, have ever caused me to not hear/evaluate equipment for exactly what it is... Both a blessing and a curse, because it means I can't easily be fooled, but on the other hand I'm rarely satisfied, because I can't just settle for something because it looks nice or seems nice - it has to be perfect.
What I could do, if i got the 1310 and its was great, would simply be to potentially re-build it into a nicer looking enclosure - you can get copies of a lot of beautiful enclosure from Nagra, Krell, Aavik etc. on ebay these days. One thing I noticed about the 1310 though is that it seems to have a fan? Having another fan running in my home it something I'd rather not have - my workstations/servers already drive me nuts when they run
I don't know if mounting passive heat-sinks would be enough, since I suspect the fan is due to the constraints of the rack mounted nature of pro-equipment?
whoaru99
Epic Member
That is at some power less than clipping, so of course the distortion spec will appear much cleaner.
If you ran the Crown at less than clipping would have a much better than 0.5% THD. However, pro audio people are interested in somewhat apples-to-apples comparisons and that's not really possible unless the rating is at a somewhat defined point like the verge of clipping. Otherwise, you get more different numbers if power is taken at, for example, 0.005, 0.05, 0.5 or 5% THD. All those values could be produced by the amp, just depends at which point is chosen by the mfg to represent the amp's performance.
