The Roon Diaries - Tips & Tricks

Something I've been struggling with is how my DAC (McIntosh D100) always displays 24 / 192 as the file spec. It never changes and I do have varying values at play here, from 16/44.1 to 24/192.

So I talked with Chuck Hinton at McIntosh and he advised that the D100 only displays what it is being sent. So that points back to the Roon software. I didn't find anything apparent as far as changing output settings so I've opened a support case at Roon for some insight.

More to follow as I get some feedback from Roon.
 
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Bumping this as I am looking at Roon as a way to migrate off the SONOS system, and not have to do the SONOS "upgrade". Planning to use my "legacy" SONOS stuff as end points until they don't work, or until I have money I want to spend on higher resolution end points.
 
Bumping this as I am looking at Roon as a way to migrate off the SONOS system, and not have to do the SONOS "upgrade". Planning to use my "legacy" SONOS stuff as end points until they don't work, or until I have money I want to spend on higher resolution end points.
If you haven't seen this yet:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/can-sonos-products-be-controlled-entirely-from-roon/69444

It appears the SONOS products can easily be controlled by Roon. You can take advantage of Roon now, and upgrade in bits and pieces as you see fit.
 
If you haven't seen this yet:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/can-sonos-products-be-controlled-entirely-from-roon/69444

It appears the SONOS products can easily be controlled by Roon. You can take advantage of Roon now, and upgrade in bits and pieces as you see fit.
I have been surfing around the Roon community to learn and am coming to the same conclusion you are telling me. And thinking I will use the very approach you suggest as I migrate away from SONOS. Going to download my 14 day trial now and set up my Mini as a Core.
 
I have been surfing around the Roon community to learn and am coming to the same conclusion you are telling me. And thinking I will use the very approach you suggest as I migrate away from SONOS. Going to download my 14 day trial now and set up my Mini as a Core.
There is a way to get a 30 day trial of Roon--I'd have to dig to find it though, or hit Google to find one that still works (which is what I did previously). You can always sign up for another trial with a different email address though.
 
There is a way to get a 30 day trial of Roon--I'd have to dig to find it though, or hit Google to find one that still works (which is what I did previously). You can always sign up for another trial with a different email address though.
I managed to get 45 days of trial, simply by canceling after 2 weeks and in "reasons why" I said that 2 weeks wasn't enough time to decide. Someone emailed me back with a offer to extend another 30 days. This happened a few years ago as well although I declined. Considering this is pretty expensive rental software, (and @ $700 is frightfully so to own) I can see where they don't want the potential subscriber to be sitting on the pot too long.. I ended up going with Roon for a year, but right now there isn't really much to hold me to it after unless they do some work on its interface. I'll probably use Audirvana (which I own) for streaming front end.
 
I managed to get 45 days of trial, simply by canceling after 2 weeks and in "reasons why" I said that 2 weeks wasn't enough time to decide. Someone emailed me back with a offer to extend another 30 days. This happened a few years ago as well although I declined. Considering this is pretty expensive rental software, (and @ $700 is frightfully so to own) I can see where they don't want the potential subscriber to be sitting on the pot too long.. I ended up going with Roon for a year, but right now there isn't really much to hold me to it after unless they do some work on its interface. I'll probably use Audirvana (which I own) for streaming front end.
Will consider doing that. I am thinking it may be a good way for me to move from the SONOS world, but want a little more time before deciding considering the cost.
 
Considering this is pretty expensive rental software, (and @ $700 is frightfully so to own) I can see where they don't want the potential subscriber to be sitting on the pot too long.
The lifetime subscriptions are something they want to get away from, hence the $700. They apparently intended lifetime subscriptions to be only for early adopters, so they could fund the software and hire enough developers to make it happen. $120/year might seem steep but, on the other hand, it's less than the cost of a new CD per month, and my Qobuz subscription isn't far behind that in cost. ($150/year for genuine hi-res can't be beat, at this point.) For what Roon gives me (their transport guarantees bit perfect data to the DAC/bridge with a Roon Endpoint), there isn't anything out there capable of what it is doing, and it's worth the price for that, even if I'm not 100% on board with the interface. I've sort of adapted to its sometimes quirky ways, and know how to find what I'm looking for via the sometimes iffy search.

It's kinda like marriage--we get along OK, but there are times I want Roon to leave me alone and just sleep on the couch for the night. :D
 
The lifetime subscriptions are something they want to get away from, hence the $700.

Well yeah maybe, or maybe they just wanted to raise the price and needed an excuse. When it became time to pay up they sure did make sure I knew all about the lifetime option plan however! Why the lifetime sales pitch if they want to "discourage"?

As it's turning out, the only way I can keep Roon from dropping tracks is to run it on 320kbps so hi rez (or even CD quality) for me and my 5 mbps isp isn't in the cards. But really it sounds quite good at mp3 so for all I plan to use Roon for (discovery and auditioning new music) it's good enough. As you can probably tell I'm still more of a music buyer than a full time streamer and Roon radio is really a good service for me. Then I use JRiver to play music at hi resolution anywhere around the house and shop and even hi rez to the phone from the NAS.

Funny how I have to switch to the Qobuz app to stream to 24/96. Roon just doesn't seem have much of a buffer and gives up too quickly on tracks.. I have looked under every 3 dot rock in that program, and if there is a setting for increasing the buffer I can't find it.
 
Or why even continue to offer it? If you don't want people to take a lifetime offer, don't make that offer.
They only kept the lifetime since so many kept on requesting it. They had a recent thread on the reasons for the lifetime version in their forum, and why they'd prefer to get rid of it entirely. From a business sense, I do see their point--if they expect to keep on maintaining and evolving Roon, they need a constant flow of income to keep the developers employed. The old lifetime subscriptions were about four years' worth of income and after that, nothing. Yet they still had update development costs, plus the licensing costs for the data they are pulling in, for customers getting a free ride past the four year point. But what about new subscribers on the lifetime plan? That wouldn't be enough to keep Roon in business. They are not Adobe or Microsoft--they are an extremely niche product in comparison, with only one egg in their basket. And the yearly subscription model makes sense. Otherwise, if they used the old traditional model of paying for major version upgrades, they would be hitting up customers for a few hundred dollars each time an upgrade came along, both to cover their costs in developing it, and to make up for those customers who might never upgrade yet go along for the "free ride" on the third party data they use (unless they cut off the third party data for users of older versions, which would create an uproar).

No, I'm not making excuses for them, nor do I care for the price tag on the yearly subscription, but to get such a niche product out there and deliver it at an acceptable quality is going to cost some money.

I was at that point myself with Adobe--I use a few of their products, and now pay for a subscription bundle that offer what I need for $10/month. It is less of a hit financially than trying to scrape up hundreds when a new version came along, or getting by on an older version that sometimes didn't have newer features I needed. Granted I can write it off through my work, but the point is that a small nibble every month, to ensure I'm always using the latest version, is better than the alternative for what could be expensive standalone software packages.

Funny how I have to switch to the Qobuz app to stream to 24/96. Roon just doesn't seem have much of a buffer and gives up too quickly on tracks.. I have looked under every 3 dot rock in that program, and if there is a setting for increasing the buffer I can't find it.
It can depend on a lot of things, not just the network speeds. Despite having 600mbps coming into the house, gig-ethernet/Cat6 in my entire network, and Ethernet to my most important media devices, I occasionally get an issue with it dropping tracks, maybe once every few weeks. That's when I find out that something else is running on my Roon Core computer (maybe a software update, malware scan, another media server doing some indexing), or there's a process running on my NAS that is creating a bottleneck. In other words, it's not my network capacity, but the NAS can't keep up with demand, or the CPU in the Roon Core computer is taxed. (I did just recently bump memory up to 16GB in that computer, and it's less stressed now--no issues yet.) Roon simply (and sometimes wrongfully) flags it as some sort of bandwidth issue. Roon Core really runs best on its own dedicated computer with a somewhat powerful CPU.
 
It can depend on a lot of things, not just the network speeds. Despite having 600mbps coming into the house, gig-ethernet/Cat6 in my entire network, and Ethernet to my most important media devices, I occasionally get an issue with it dropping tracks, maybe once every few weeks. That's when I find out that something else is running on my Roon Core computer (maybe a software update, malware scan, another media server doing some indexing), or there's a process running on my NAS that is creating a bottleneck. In other words, it's not my network capacity, but the NAS can't keep up with demand, or the CPU in the Roon Core computer is taxed. (I did just recently bump memory up to 16GB in that computer, and it's less stressed now--no issues yet.) Roon simply (and sometimes wrongfully) flags it as some sort of bandwidth issue. Roon Core really runs best on its own dedicated computer with a somewhat powerful CPU.

That's probably it. The laptop the Roon core is on is a Win 10 OS with the Intel I5 and it is dedicated to audio, but it's several years old, and probably not up to what Roon needs. When it stops a track and goes to the next it is almost always within the first 15-45 seconds into it.. Reading on the Roon forum, someone else was having a similar problem, only with Tidal stalling. He had a 10 mbps ISP plan and Roon rep was saying that 10 was considered minimal. Qobuz app will occasionally stall a HD track too but not nearly as often. Once I decided to let HD streaming through Roon go and just throttle it back to 320 it hasn't dropped any more tracks and I am starting to find the program useful without fighting it so much. MP3 seems to sound better to me than I ever remember it sounding 10 years ago!
 
Ok, after spending some significant time trying to figure this all out, 0-60 as I have never really known anything about RPi stuff (OR Roon for that matter) and etc., here is where I am.

I am currently in the boat of having 6 total SONOS units between Connects (which are basically “end points” for SONOS feeding my older but nice sounding stereo gear) and 2 out of 3 standalone speakers. The third, a one in my wife’s home office, will survive this transition I am spending a lot of time getting myself up to speed on how Roon works, and what I will need to have and do to replace the computer portion of what my SONOS units did. AND, I have time as my SONOS gear still works with the SONOS app now, and hopefully will for at least several months after they stop updating, and hopefully I can extend that a while by using Roon.

Seems like Raspbery Pi based units, paired with some sort of good but economical DAC (I have to figure this part out, I have one Meridian Explorer 2 that hopefully could be connected (USB) to a Rpi based end point), will work with Roon to replace the functionality and experience SONOS provided.

Then I can replace as I go. But once I find an economical “bang for the buck” option that gives me Hi-Rez and Tidal MQA (RAAT?), I will likely replace the three Connects at once so I can then group them. And I bet a way will emerge to replace the brains in my SONOS:5 at least, and maybe even the 3. Not sure my wife would love an Rpi sitting on top of the old SONOS speakers, but maybe I could hide it behind or something. It all feels very LEGO and Millenium falcon to me, with the computer board look of all the RPi and HAT stuff.

Perhaps there would be a way to open up and gut my old Connects, and put my RPi and HAT stuff inside those boxes. I know WyredforSound is doing mods to Connects, but it is costly, and maybe not as good as some of the RPi options. But maybe it could be recreated using RPi type stuff. @Wildcat , @Wolfomatic or anyone else, interested in continuing input as I learn. Consider me a Mac type guy that is needing to learn how to mod and upgrade his PC.
 
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That's probably it. The laptop the Roon core is on is a Win 10 OS with the Intel I5 and it is dedicated to audio, but it's several years old, and probably not up to what Roon needs.
A Core i5 should be good enough, but having a lot of memory (8GB minimum, 16GB preferable to reduce aging to disk) and an SSD go a long way towards freeing up bottlenecks, not to mention running as little as possible on the computer simultaneously. The Intel NUC I use is pretty much stripped of all applications except for Roon Server (Core) and Mezzmo (which is a DLNA server process for video) and runs Win 10. I dual-boot on that computer and have wondered if Ubuntu would operate using the same resource limits--I'm thinking it will, but then I lose Mezzmo (as I hate to run anything in an emulator, although the Mezzmo folks say it does work) and don't have the same Remote Desktop experience either.

It all feels very LEGO and Millenium falcon to me, with the computer board look of all the RPi and HAT stuff.
That is why I never liked the Raspberry Pi myself--it's too tweaky and techie for me, at least for daily use. To tinker with, sure! It'd be fun to see what I could automate with them. Since they are small, though, you're right in that they could easily be hidden, and there are builds of the Roon endpoint for RPi, so that's an advantage also. I have never looked but I wonder if there are better, more "upscale" (for lack of a better term) enclosures for the RPi units. I know the Intel NUC computers really don't look too bad, yet there are enclosure options for those now from third parties. (The NUC is used as the Roon Core, so it's tucked away on the network since it operates headless.)

I've never followed SONOS but, from what you're saying, they're removing support for some of their products and/or features? That's a shame if so. But, maybe you'll find that Roon can still keep those devices actively working without having to discard them too soon. Google discontinued the Chromecast Audio (I have eight in the house, five of them stored for future use), yet Roon supports the Cast protocol so it can send music to my Nest Minis and Nest Hubs, along with the NVidia SHIELD and Nexus Player which all support it. I just have to enable each device in Roon. And for those who owned the Logitech Squeezeboxes, those are long gone, but the LMS (Logitech Media Server) lives on and many are still using them.
 
To those using i5 processors and 16GB of RAM, but still having dropout issues: are you using Roon to do major DSP room eq, or other signal manipulation?

I'm struggling to see why streaming audio takes any more than a few percent CPU on an old 1.6G Atom N280 with 2GB or RAM.
 
A Core i5 should be good enough, but having a lot of memory (8GB minimum, 16GB preferable to reduce aging to disk) and an SSD go a long way towards freeing up bottlenecks, not to mention running as little as possible on the computer simultaneously. The Intel NUC I use is pretty much stripped of all applications except for Roon Server (Core) and Mezzmo (which is a DLNA server process for video) and runs Win 10. I dual-boot on that computer and have wondered if Ubuntu would operate using the same resource limits--I'm thinking it will, but then I lose Mezzmo (as I hate to run anything in an emulator, although the Mezzmo folks say it does work) and don't have the same Remote Desktop experience either.
My laptop with Roon core has 8gb of ram, and has been refreshed (as in a complete Windoze reinstall). 1TB HD (spinning) and nothing else running. Using Defender for viruses. I have to think it's the 5mbps ISP speed I'm using. But still a question why can QB stream it at 24/96 (which uses aprox 3 mbps). Maybe it just needs a LOT of spendy hardware as they claim! If so where is the extra speed needed? It doesn't seem to be doing that much. I have to wonder if it is sloppy (resource wasteful) software .. Backing up Roon's Library took almost a half hour and GB's of data! JR takes 15 seconds...

To those using i5 processors and 16GB of RAM, but still having dropout issues: are you using Roon to do major DSP room eq, or other signal manipulation?

I'm struggling to see why streaming audio takes any more than a few percent CPU on an old 1.6G Atom N280 with 2GB or RAM.

Not using Roon's DSP engine at all (switched off) . No surround, just streaming stereo from QB, and pretty much forced to use MP3 to guarantee no dropouts. Thats only 1/3rd of a MBPS!
 
Well, wouldn't you know...

I used my little Atom netbook to play some music using MusicBee tonight, just to see how much CPU it took. About 10% playing FLAC filies to local speakers (awful, obviously), and about 6% streaming UPnP to my Denon DRA-N5.

But then it stopped playing. So I hit play again, and it re-started. And it stopped again. And it kept doing it...

Now, I recently installed a different router, so I wondered if it was that. But I brought up task manager, and used the 'performance' view to monitor CPU. And the stops coincided with a sudden spike in CPU to near 100%. So quick that I couldn't catch it in the Process view.

MS Security Essentials is running, and it spikes, as does TrustedInstaller.

So I rebooted, and just let the netbook sit, doing nothing other than Task Manager. And there were those same CPU spikes. And they're continuing. Memory use has just dropped by about 250M.

MsMpEng.exe (the MSE executable) and TrustedInstaller.exe are spiking the CPU. Even though I've set it to use not more than 10%.

Now, this is a new thing. Windows 7 just ended support, with a last update. If I was a suspicious, cynical type, I might be wondering if Microsft's last hoorah was to roll out an update that deliberately bollocksed the performance of remaining Win7 installations...

I tried MB on my Atom all-in-one. That did one start/stop cycle, but seems to be playing okay now. Though it's using GBE, not WiFi.

So it looks like I need to investigate a bit further. But I'd recommend you have a look at the CPU usage, and see if dropouts or problems coincide with spikes in activity of Microsoft's Security Essentials or Trusted Installer.
 
No DSP here either for my main system feeding the DirectStream. But I use it on my desktop to notch out a bad resonance in these speakers at 125Hz.

Roon Core is doing a lot more than just rendering the audio, including watching the library continuously for changes (unless you have automatic scanning turned off), and possibly updating metadata, and the "recommended list" data. Roon also creates the waveforms for your music files, and I have it do those on the fly vs. doing them all at once. When I first boot up Roon, it uses a lot of resources. But it settles in and doesn't do much.

This is Roon at idle, a few seconds apart. There are three processes for Roon--RAAT, RoonAppliance and RoonServer.

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This is playing a ripped SACD, the DSD file, to my desktop (which uses the parametric EQ DSP):

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This is what bandwidth looks like while playing a DSD file from the NAS to my desktop computer:

upload_2020-1-23_20-4-37.png
 
So it looks like I need to investigate a bit further. But I'd recommend you have a look at the CPU usage, and see if dropouts or problems coincide with spikes in activity of Microsoft's Security Essentials or Trusted Installer.
It definitely helps to look at the various resource monitors built in. Recent Win10 builds also can suspend some Microsoft process for power savings, if they are not needed. It's more efficient than Win7 and Win8.

Although I did discover something interesting just now. Take a look:

upload_2020-1-23_20-21-14.png

I've never seen a third party application with priority "Below normal." (Priority is similar to the nice command in *nix.) Essentially, Roon is being "polite" in allowing other system processes to run at a higher priority than itself. I wonder if changing priority to "Above normal" would keep other applications from stealing some of its CPU cycles. Two drawbacks though. First one--there are warnings the application could become unstable. Second--there is no way to save your new setting. You would have to reapply it each time you boot the computer. (I'm searching for an easy way to save the priority, perhaps through a registry edit.)
 
My netbook spikes disappeared if I turn off WiFi, so it looks like there's something going on with the network.

I disconnected from the homegroup (I don't need to share files between computers; I've got a NAS for that...) Spikes still present.

More investigation needed...

...turned off MSE. Still getting spikes.

Will disconnect all the PCs on my network from the homegroup; I have a suspicion it might be the network discovery causing the blips.

...reverted to the ISP router. Spikes gone away, and MusicBee now playing perfectly... Hmmm... Will have to see if it's something the 'new' router is doing, or something it's allowing to happen (e.g. firewall not blocking questionable traffic?).

Whatever the problem is, it does show that a router can have a significant effect on the ability to play streaming music, even locally
 
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