Tubes for Everyman!

No, Dan, I am not moving forward yet. I still have some interest in the Raven, Prima Luna and LM products. Right now I am settling the speaker issue. I just ordered a pair of ATC SCM 11 v2 speakers to try out. That will help me settle the amp questions.

Nice. I enjoyed reading WhatHiFi's comparison between the SCM 11 v2 and the 118's. Looking forward to reading your impressions.

An SET amp will often act as a sub-optimal tone control. Which means you have no idea how it's going to sound until you hook it up. If there is an impedance dip at frequency X, there will be a change in the speakers response. A huge change you can't predict without knowing the exact curve of the speaker impedance.

I get the whole thing....and bowing to the golden glow of a 300B. Don't forget I'm Mr. Tube. I know this shit. If you have the money to try it and get out, go ahead. But these same guys in an effort to make an amp that is clearly handicapped work will hook up the worst friggin' speakers in the world to them. Just so they can have a speaker with a 16 ohm impedance and 96dB sensitivity. Read the reviews. Like these Lowther drivers that don't have tweeters. Then to make their point they will say things like "Oh it's so liquid and smooth". Of course it's smooth. Lowthers don't have true top end extension. And you have no tweeter. Let me save you some time and trouble. If you want to get the SET experience with Lowthers, but not lose money...just unhook the tweeters in your system.

LOL, I think I'll leave my tweeters connected. I think the high frequency extension of my speakers is a strength and not a weakness.

Now having said that, I own one!!! But I look at it. It's cute and fun. I turn it on once a year. Guys it's cool to do this if you face reality and say it's fun. But to say it's high fidelity, it's just not so.

I guess I'm not overly concerned with high fidelity vs. coloured sound but your warnings about the Cary's unpredictability are something I'll keep in mind. I don't want to overthink things...I like my speakers enough to know I want to hang onto them, and they are relatively easy to drive (plus I have the AN AX-Two's as well). I could pair them with many different amplifiers and they will sound very good. So it's worth looking at amps that don't have severe limitations and that I know will be able to handle my speakers without any straining.

Lastly what about the Sugden A21a. It's SET but solid State and has more oomph at 20 watts? Or First Watt. These beat up a number of tube amps IME as well. And without any tube hassles. The problem with my kit suggestion is that you're stuck with them - I can't imagine them having any real resale value.

I've considered Sugden. Not sure it would scratch the itch to tinker like a tube amp would, but I'm sure a Sugden and ProAc pairing would have excellent synergy.

I may have to give Finale Audio more of a look. They are local and so I could stop by and listen to some of their models. They have a new 6L6 integrated on the horizon that looks interesting. 10-12 class A watts, price is good. http://www.finaleaudio.com/up-coming/ - scroll about half way down the page.
 
I think it's going to come down to either the ProLogue Premium or a used Cary CAD-300SEI. That seems to be an affordable Class A SET amp that has a remote and generates sufficient power to handle my speakers. I'd love to try Class A SET but to be honest my current EL34 push/pull amp sounds remarkably open, clear, and natural that I'd be fine staying in the pp camp.

I have 91dB Von Schweikerts. Tried them at very moderate listening levels (typical volume level of 78-80dB, listening from 8') with a 5 wpc SE amp. Was not impressed at all. However when driven by a PP in Triode mode, 18 wpc 6CA7 amp, the sound was glorious. Rich harmonics, big wide image, very natural voice and piano. Was very surprised that the SE amp sounded thin at this volume level. Same was true when driving a pair of 89dB Focals.
 
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Thanks to all who have been writing this thread. I just found it last night and have worked my way thru it. Very informative and also frustrating (Ina good way). I am one of those tube amp virgins looking at getting a tube amp and trying to find my way thru the chatter, claims etc. I have a cheap YS Audio pre that I got off the bay that got me thinking about the full tube amp approach. l live in HI so limited oppty to listen before buying. Heard a usedAudio Spce locally and got the fever, then a McIntosh MC275 and got hotter. Unfortunately, retirement means I probably can't go above $3k so no Mac. Was thinking Rogue after hearing CM in Louisiana a while ago but reading and hearing about LM, others made me hold off. Now really confused and not sure which way to go. Would run with Ohm Walsh 2-100, Kef R300 or Spendor S3/5. Convinced now I have to listen or get a real honest recommendation. Learned lots in the last couple hours.
 
Unfortunately there's little opportunity to audition a SET amp before buying one. I've yet to see one in any of the boutique audio stores I've visited in Atlanta and Charlotte. The high end stores tend to carry high power amps for their inefficient speakers. Like many I took a leap of faith and bought my first SET online and it's one of the best decisions I've made.
 
There are plenty of high end stores that carry moderate to high efficiency speakers as well as SET amps. You just have to put in the work to look for them. Some offer trial demo periods.
 
Thanks to all who have been writing this thread. I just found it last night and have worked my way thru it. Very informative and also frustrating (Ina good way). I am one of those tube amp virgins looking at getting a tube amp and trying to find my way thru the chatter, claims etc. I have a cheap YS Audio pre that I got off the bay that got me thinking about the full tube amp approach. l live in HI so limited oppty to listen before buying. Heard a usedAudio Spce locally and got the fever, then a McIntosh MC275 and got hotter. Unfortunately, retirement means I probably can't go above $3k so no Mac. Was thinking Rogue after hearing CM in Louisiana a while ago but reading and hearing about LM, others made me hold off. Now really confused and not sure which way to go. Would run with Ohm Walsh 2-100, Kef R300 or Spendor S3/5. Convinced now I have to listen or get a real honest recommendation. Learned lots in the last couple hours.
The Raven Audio Nighthawk at $2595 sounds better than anything near its price but has no phono stage. The Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II can sound ~ 90% as good with $300.00 worth of NOS tubes. Based on the amps I have heard I can easily recommend those two options.
 
There are plenty of high end stores that carry moderate to high efficiency speakers as well as SET amps. You just have to put in the work to look for them. Some offer trial demo periods.


Since you seem knowledgeable of audio stores in Atlanta and Charlotte maybe you can list a few that sell SET amps?
 
Yes and no.

I've had a number of dealers who would ship anything I asked for on demo basis. It takes a little research and to build a relationship. Folks are used to only having relationships with local dealers. Over the years I have built relationships with a number of dealers around the country and can demo nearly any product they sell. Just takes putting in a bit of work and getting out of the mindset that everything has to be now.
 
I would guess that is as easy for anyone as it has been for me, and it has not been difficult, exclusive or all that limited. I would ask anyone interested just check the distributor for whatever products they are interested in and find the closest dealer or dealers. Then give them a call and start the process of building rapport and thus a relationship. It usually doesn't take long before you get a demo offer. While many folks are busily griping on the internet about not having a dealer nearby they could be establishing a relationship with one and moving forward toward a dream system. It's about less chatter and more action.
 
I'm not sure how they sound but I have to say those Dennis Had Inspire Fire Bottle amps look fantastic. Love the tube rolling options and it looks like you get a lot for the money.
 
Custom hand builders like Dennis Had are the way to go. A one man operation who has very little overhead and doesn't have to build to some bean counter's price point can afford better parts. No indifferent Asian assembly line but instead you get an artisan pouring his heart into his craft. He even signs his name on the bottom of each amp. Dennis is one of many custom builders and each have their own following ( rock stars of the SET trade :) )
 
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I love classical music and opera. And I collect tube amps. Here’s my systems:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/robert_kc-current-systems.695223/

I’m not a technician.

I have an illustrative question for all of you who manufacture tube amps: Why don’t I own a modern integrated tube amp? Answer: No tone controls. (No – I don’t subscribe to the “Temple of Pure Thought” that argues that we should hear whatever the mastering engineer thinks we should hear.) I have some recordings that are too bright, and the treble needs to be attenuated. I have some recordings that are too lean, and they need to have the bass accentuated.

Here’s my reference for sound quality:

Helzberg_Hall_interior_zps2292bien.jpg



Why don’t designers of modern integrated tube amps include tone controls? Manufacturers could include a defeat switch in order to satisfy those who don’t want tone controls. Why is it that more that 50 years ago Scott, Fisher, and Pilot built integrated tube amps with tone controls, and manufacturers don’t include them today?

I paid $550 a few years ago for a restored mint-condition Scott 299C. It’s the best investment I ever made in audio.

I have several power amps driven directly by the variable output of an Oppo universal player. This configuration can sound great. However it’s difficult and time consuming to “voice” the amp (via tube rolling) to a loudspeaker, without the benefit of tone controls. Hence, my preference for an integrated amp with tone controls.

What this world needs IMO is a quality integrated tube amp with tone controls that looks nice enough that people want to display it in their living room, and is supported in the USA. (Let’s assume a budget of $5,000.)

Manufacturers of modern tube amps: What say ye?

Thanks for any input. And BTW, this thread involves some great discussion!

P.S. I’d like to find full-range stereo floor-standing speakers with good dynamics that can fill an average size room with life-like sound when driven by a tube amp, and have beautiful high-end real wood veneer (preferably dark cherry or walnut). Traditional style, including grills. I need a tower format - I can’t accommodate corner speakers, or speakers wider than 12 inches. What are my options other than Klipsch Palladium or RF-7 II? I own both, and am happy with them, but I’m considering new speakers for my 10’ x 12’ office. No DYI, or vintage speakers requiring restoration (unless there’s a reliable source for restored speakers). Let’s assume a budget of $8,000. (The only DeVORE speakers that I’ve heard were the O/96, and I think that they sounded unnaturally bright.) Thanks again. :)

P.P.S. I’m aware of Luxman integrated amps. It appears there's a distributor in California. Is the SQ-38u still made? Does anyone have any experience with this amp?
 
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Robert

I have never seen or heard them. There is a guy on another forum that raved about them, plus Steve Hoffman had a pair "on loan" for over a year and did an extensive review of them on his site. He used them all over his house in various systems and may have even taken them to the recording studio. The founder of the company passed away several years ago and it is now owned by the principals in Snake River Cable and built in Idaho. As to the grills that is something you should ask them. They may be able to do the magnetic attachment kind. It would probably be worth calling Johnny Wilson of Snake River and talking about what you are looking for.

Jack
 
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