USB 78rpm ripping on a budget

[sKiZo]

Quite a few cheap USB turntables listed that do just that, but wondering which to buy. I'm looking to convert a couple hundred old disks that have been collecting dust but don't see any reason to burn the bank doing it.

- Table recommendations? Remember the "budget" part, please.

- Software? I hear good things about EQUALIZER freeware, but can't find it.

- Stylus concerns? Most of the three speed tables I see (Ion anyone?) either don't list their stylus specs, or just say that the tables will work at 78rpm ... just now how well. The disks DO need a wider needle for the best results. That said, will single playback suffer using the standard stylus supplied?

Another option - playback on a "standard" table at 45rpm and convert the speed using Audacity. I understand there's EQ issues involved, but also find that there's apparently ways around that. Found this interesting lil beastie in my wanderings ...

Not much about it, other than it allows you to switch between standard RIAA or a "78" curve. Granted, there's a LOT of 78rpm curves, but this is supposed to provide acceptable playback with most if not all. What it DOES apparently avoid is the major top end roll off that applying RIAA would do for the older recordings.

(This box also allows TWO table connections, one for your LPs and the other for a dedicated 78 table, accessible with a flip of a switch. That's kewl, but I'd be switching cartridges on my Mitsu to do the ripping. Got a decent little NOS old school Shure with a 3mil stylus for that.)

And worth noting ... not really looking for "audiophile grade" rips ... one shot deal, adequate or better, just to preserve them for my digital collection, then back in the closet with em.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[Rx7man]

Whenever I rip old stuff onto my computer, I'm always fiddling with the sound and EQ levels anyhow (goldwave is a good program for that).. I can usually remove some hiss and pop, and set an EQ curve.. It's so easily done in software I wouldn't bother much with a dedicated piece of hardware unless you have other uses for it. I'd be running the TT to one of my Marantz receivers, and using the tape out to feed it to the line in on my computer.. It may not be audiophile quality, but I'd be able to do it all with what I already have

 

[tcdriver]

The Shure with the 3 mil. stylus is just what you need to play back 78 rpm records. Then, then the cheapest option is playback on a "standard" table at 45rpm and convert the speed using Audacity. Since you have all the ingredients for that option, give it a try and see how it works. That is the truly no-cost way to go.

 

[sKiZo]

Yah ... I like the idea of cheap. <G>

That leaves the EQ issue. I do know that most consumer equipment will decode the incoming signal to RIAA standards no matter what the actual curve is, with no defeat possible. Audacity recommends applying an "inverse RIAA" curve on 78rpm rips to get around that, and then applying the correct curve. Seems to me, if the older curves aren't all that different, it'd be a lot easier to let the TEC stage do the dirty work there. The TEC units do tend to be strong, and there's no level control, but my setup is quiet anyway, so I don't see that as a problem. Be simply wunnerful if there's someone out there with personal experience using one or knows of another pre that does the same thing.

PS ... I've already got an outboard phono pre in line (Art DJ Pre II) so it'd be a simple cable swap to hook up the TEC and switch to the "78" curve.

Oh. And about that EQUALIZER freeware ... still can't find it ... (nudge nudge)

 

[sKiZo]

Progress report ... let's hear it for rainy days ...

(TMI? Maybe, but I had to do some digging to come up with this stuff, and maybe save yall some work.)

Looks like I got a plan here, at no extra expense!

- Ripped an arguably bad 78 and saved it as uncompressed WAV, using my daily turntable at 45rpm with the aforementioned Shure cartridge. That has the recommended 3mil stylus and set to track at 2½ grams.

- Opened the file in Audacity and previewed it ... yes ... it sounded just as bad as I expected. <G>

- Adjusted the speed from 45rpm to 78rpm using Audacity's handy dandy conversion utility. That also seems to take care of any tonal inconsistencies I've seen mentioned elsewhere that you'd likely hear with just a basic speed change.

- Applied the CLICK filter to get rid of the really bad pops. Careful here ... you CAN adjust to a higher than default setting, but the more aggressive, the more real music can be lost. You can play around with it and use UNDO if you want to try it again till you're happy with the results.

- Applied the NORMALIZE filter at -3db to reduce it to levels I'm used to seeing with normal 33 vinyl rips. Make sure the RUMBLE filter is clicked on and set to 100hz. That's typically a problem area on shellac. Your results may vary.

- Applied NOISE REDUCTION after sampling the lead in for the correct profile.

All this before working on the EQ curve. Why? I figure I'd be best changing that after getting a clean working version of the recording.

- Opened up Audacity's Equalization wizard and selected RIAA from the list of available curves. Clicked on INVERSE, and applied that. This in effect removes RIAA eq from the recording.

Here's where it got interesting. Next step is to apply the correct eq curve for that particular 78. Found a nice list that included the apparently rare settings for Philharmonia recordings.

http://www.mil-media.com/pdf/Millennia 78 EQ Chart.pdf

Now ... how to apply those? Audacity's custom eq utility leaves a lot to be desired. Found this neat lil widget that does the work automatically, building the appropriate settings and adding them to your EQ filter pick list. Some head scratching required, but certainly easier than learning XML so you can write your own custom eq settings and access them easily any time they're needed.

http://forum.audacityteam.org/download/file.php?id=4645

You need to drop that into the appropriate Audacity folder. Here it is for Windohs 8:

C:\Users\(your user name)\AppData\Roaming\Audacity

Same folder is used for any other plugin or add-on you wish to install. Any other operating system, yer on yer own. <G>

SPECIAL NOTE > > Once installed, this 78 curve builder utility can be found under the GENERATE menu on Audacity after closing/restarting the software. Once you assign a unique name and save a new filter, you'll find it in the EFFECTS\EQUALIZATION menu.

Here's a nice collection of pre-built custom eq settings.

http://wiki.audacityteam.org/w/images/a/aa/EQ_toolbox_78rpm.xml

** If you want to save some work, and are willing to compromise a bit, it's rumored the COLUMBIA 78 settings work quite well for most post '31 American shellac. Certainly worth a shot.

That's pretty much it. Save the file to FLAC (or another lossless format) and enjoy! I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the recording, especially as the record itself was in pretty bad shape. Good bottom end and strong at the top, with acceptable background noise.

I do plan to redo the same recording, just to make sure I can recreate the process. I've also got an older version of SoundForge on the XP side of my dual boot HTPC that I plan to try ... that has a killer pop and click filter that has special scrubbing available specifically for 78 shellac. Be interesting to see if that does a better job than Audacity. I've also heard a lot of good things about a program called ClickRepair. Certainly worth a free trial anyway.

http://www.clickrepair.net/noise/intermittent_noise.html

 

[Max77]

Rumble isn't a problem with shellac, it's a problem with a turntable.

 

[skriefal]

The Equalizer software is from the same guy who makes ClickRepair.

http://www.clickrepair.net/software_download/downloads_win.html

It's the last link at the bottom of the page, labeled 'Equalizer Installer.'

 

[sKiZo]

Rumble isn't a problem with shellac, it's a problem with a turntable.

I really hate blanket statements ... wish I had me a filter for those. ;-}

The "rumble" I speak of is due to any amount of warpage in the disk, and that's not uncommon with one that old. From what I gather, applying a 100hz notch filter is considered a ... blanket fix (hee hee) ... for most such issues.

I did find this, and that looks like a good way to go.

Load the track.
Click on the downward pointing arrow next to the track name.
Select "Spectrogram".

Examine the display to see if the rumble is confined to a small frequency band or if it extends all the way to "dc" (0 Hz). You can also select a few seconds of audio and go "Analyse --> Plot Spectrum" to get a more detailed analysis. (Algorithm: Spectrum, Size: 16384, Function: Hanning window, Axis: Log frequency)

For a resonance (rumble in a narrow band), you might want to use "Effect --> Equalization" or "Notch filter". For general LF noise to DC, you might try "High pass filter.".

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/cleaning-up-rumble-in-audacity.295803/#post-8045399

The Equalizer software is from the same guy who makes ClickRepair.

http://www.clickrepair.net/software_download/downloads_win.html

It's the last link at the bottom of the page, labeled 'Equalizer Installer.'

Thanx for that!

I also see mention of a couple other products on that site that are right handy, and one (DeNoise) is rumored to address the rumble issue dynamically. Adding these to my tool set might not be a bad idea, if I can put the blinders on Mr Cheap long enough to make a payment. <G>

 

[Poinzy]

If you ever decide to graduate to some fancier restoration software, I recommend Izotope RX.

 

[ripblade]

I found some interesting results by aggressively de-clicking 78s at 45rpm after the inverse RIAA was applied. I was actually able to reduce the frying noises to a steady hiss this way with no loss of dynamics, but at the expense of some ambiance information. Mind you, I used the declicker in Izotope Rx2 (vinyl setting), which took quite awhile to process. Never had much luck with denoisers as they all seem to suck the life and dynamics out of the sound. YMMV.

BTW, rumble shouldn't be a problem if the channels are folded to mono as a last step.

 

[ripblade]

I also see mention of a couple other products on that site that are right handy, and one (DeNoise) is rumored to address the rumble issue dynamically. Adding these to my tool set might not be a bad idea, if I can put the blinders on Mr Cheap long enough to make a payment. <G>

If you're shopping around for software, take a look at Diamond Cut Productions offering. The software was originally designed principally for 78 but works with vinyl also. Not the best there is out there, but it offers a lot for the money.

 

[sKiZo]

I'll leave that for when my budget approach fails miserably ... should be any day now. <G>

And once again, not looking for perfect, just something I can listen to without cringing ...

The hard part so far is resisting the urge to over-process the original music. I've a few I've purchased that show admirable restraint. Good example is The Complete Toscanini collection (on CD), which still has quite prominent background noise on some cuts, but it was either that or lose actual music. I hear they went through a LOT of originals to come up with the best of what was available, and much of that was actually transcribed from other than the masters.

Which brings me to one gripe about Audacity ... it doesn't have an option to preview what's actually cut when noise reduction is applied. Be nice to know what you're actually losing in the process.

I found some interesting results by aggressively de-clicking 78s at 45rpm after the inverse RIAA was applied. I was actually able to reduce the frying noises to a steady hiss this way with no loss of dynamics, but at the expense of some ambiance information. Mind you, I used the declicker in Izotope Rx2 (vinyl setting), which took quite awhile to process. Never had much luck with denoisers as they all seem to suck the life and dynamics out of the sound. YMMV.

BTW, rumble shouldn't be a problem if the channels are folded to mono as a last step.

And a big thank you for that. Good to add some real world experience to my "to try" list.

That's also part of building the process - playing with the order in which filters are applied can have a big impact on what comes out the other end. Should be interesting to see what happens if I save adjusting the speed for last.

 

[ripblade]

That's also part of building the process - playing with the order in which filters are applied can have a big impact on what comes out the other end. Should be interesting to see what happens if I save adjusting the speed for last.

The success or failure of different methods can be quite dramatic. One constant seems to be to do the inverse RIAA before anything else, and re-EQ after everything else. DCP actually sells a flat preamp, which in general are becoming more common for the purposes of doing needle-drops.

 

[ripblade]

Which brings me to one gripe about Audacity ... it doesn't have an option to preview what's actually cut when noise reduction is applied. Be nice to know what you're actually losing in the process.

You can do it manually, but it's a fair bit of work. You have to save the output file, invert the phase and blend it back into the input file. What remains will be the noise, plus a little music dynamics if you've over done it. Listen for a beat....if you hear a rhythm pattern in the noise you need to dial back the correction.

If you do try it, music segments that feature brass and percussion are good places to look for destructive de-clicking (over correction).

 

[sKiZo]

Hold the phone ... dUH! moment. Just noticed, Audacity apparently DOES allow you to preview what's removed ... just click the Residue button. Have to try that with an appropriate sample selected.

I'd still think the noise profile should be captured from the lead in (dead space) and then applied to the sample, and finally the entire cut?

 

[sKiZo]

Here's another interesting trick to try ...

Chasing down individual clicks is a detailed process (we're talking on a scale of a few milleseconds, here): expand the tracks (left click+hold on the bottom of the tracks, pull down), highlight the noisy area of the waveform, press the Fit Selection toolbar key (upper right corner; magnifying glass -<-->- ), zoom in (magnifying glass+) and highlight the actual click, Edit/Find Zero Crossings, and hit the Del key on your keyboard.

http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?p=210070&sid=37d8b8c9fa6c000051f19cd23e1ce63e#p210070

I've been highlighting the click and applying about 3db of Normalize to mitigate it. Mostly works, at least muting the speaker killing pOps ...

** One thing I haven't been able to find in Audacity is a way to tab between tracks. In many cases, I'll see a bad click on one track and can copy/paste the good track over that. SoundForge is easy - highlight one track, hit tab, and paste. Audacity forces me to select one track, copy, select the other track and paste. This is mostly accurate, but introduces a chance of desynchronizing the tracks if you're not spot on in the selecting the target. Can't imagine there's not a better way to do that ... nudge nudge ...

 

[DougMac]

The single biggest improvement can be made cheaply. Almost all 78s are very dirty, with 60 to 100 years of grime built up. Proper cleaning is a must. You can't wet clean Edison's and you can't use any product with alcohol. I use VWR Scientific's LabTone, but you have to buy in bulk. Unscented Dawn will so in a pinch. I vacuum RCM is highly recommended.

If your 78s are from the late 40s, I wouldn't worry about special EQ. The EQ used then was very close to what became the RIAA standard.

The Audio Technica AT-120-LP offers 78 speed and is an OK deck for $300. PS, Hanpen haters need not respond. We are all too aware of your opinion and we never said it would play as well as your $2,400 VPI Classic or whatever you have.

BTW, I have about 5,000 78s. I play them with an AT Mono3 cart with the 78 stylus spinning on a Technics SP-15.

 

[sKiZo]

Yup - I already do the Dawn and scrub/blot with a handy wipe. Amazing how dirty the water can get with just a couple disks.

* Nice table, but I really don't have room for two, and I really really like my trusty ol' Mitsu for the 33 collection.

 

[ripblade]

Hold the phone ... dUH! moment. Just noticed, Audacity apparently DOES allow you to preview what's removed ... just click the Residue button. Have to try that with an appropriate sample selected.

Ok...my suggestion applies to de-clicking only.

As I've said, I've had little success with denoisers. What I have found is the noise sample has a huge effect on the quality of the reduction, it also varies from place to place on the record, so a one sample approach will only yield passable results in only one place. The problem is even greater for 78 than it is for LP....one software maker features a tool that will interpolate 2 noise samples (taken at the beginning and end of the side) for that very reason, and DCP has what they call an adaptive filter algorithm for the same reason.

 

[sKiZo]

UPDATE (Rainy day alert)

Got into it here and have to say quite satisfied with the results. Went with my trusty ol' Mitsu DP-EC10 table, a DJ Pre II stage, and a Behringer UCA202 to do the analog/digital connection to the computer. First attempt was the Brandenburg Concertos (JS Bach) by the Busch Chamber Players, recorded in 1935, with moderate wear and sink washed with Dawn, using a Shure M93 with the 3mil stylus. Here's a sample ...

Volume #1 Allegro #1 in F Major (Excerpt)

Comments and suggestions would be appreciated, but I personally consider these eminently playable ...

PS ... I'm in love with Audacity's "chain" feature, which basically allows you to write a macro that applies multiple effects to an entire album after breaking down the tracks and saving them to a folder. Just point the chain at a directory and sit back to watch the show. Here's what I went with, once again, using minimal settings so as not to compromise the music.

- Change Speed (ripped at 33 1/3rpm)
- Click Removal (default settings)
- Noise Reduction (Capture a "noise profile" first from the album - this will be applied to all the tracks)
- Clip Fix (default settings - not really necessary if you're careful setting your levels, but it can't hertz)
- StereoToMono (Not sure where exactly to place this in the chain for best possible results)
- Equalization (Apply inverse RIAA, basically flattening the curve)
- Equalization (In this case, applies the Columbia curve to match that of the original recording)
- ExportFlac
- END -

The only change I'm thinking I'll have to make in this chain as I do other rips is the EQ curve that's reapplied after stripping the RIAA curve. That and creating a new "noise profile" ...

The Export at the end is kind of a "gotcha". Audacity writes new files in a "cleaned" folder inside the source folder for your original rips. I tried a couple times and couldn't find the output folder anywhere on the computer. Did some digging, and found out that a chain won't save the processed versions unless you add an EXPORT step at the end. dOH! Lord save us from "undocumented features"!

Worth mentioning. The "default settings" applied by the chain are whatever you've saved for that particular effect. Probably best to double check those before getting on with it. Only real change I've made here is to reduce the 12db quieting on the noise reduction to 6db, but I can see where that could be a problem.

** Now's where the voice of experience would be muchly appreciated. ;-}

NOTE > > Sorry, but I forgot to save a raw rip version for comparison. Suffice it to say, major improvements, especially in eliminating clicks and pops and reduction of background noise. Applying the correct EQ worked wonders as well.

I found some interesting results by aggressively de-clicking 78s at 45rpm after the inverse RIAA was applied.

... rumble shouldn't be a problem if the channels are folded to mono as a last step.

Just reviewed the thread, and I'll have to go back and rearrange the chain a bit to give your way a try. One advantage to saving the original raw rips. And yes, folding to mono definitely did get rid of some rumble that was evident in the original stereo rip. Thanx!