Vintage Thorens TD-165 Turntable for Restoration

Timothy Flath

Active Member
Just got a Thorens TD 165 today for restoration. Thought it was in better mechanical shape but I new it would take some effort. Here are the three video clips I have done today to show the condition of it. The third video is the one that has me the most worried. Wondering if there is any advice on which direction to go - Do I need to replace the motor and spindle assembly or are there some spindle fixes to sort out the noise? I have ordered a new belt and the ant-skate arm that was broken on the TTshown in Part 1

Part 1 Overview of TT Top view

Part 2 Internal view

Part 3 Motor Noise
 
Can you feel play in the motor when you move the spindle back and forth? Meaning, does it feel like a bearing is bad and the shaft has a wiggle or movement. I'm assuming it does, and when you attach the belt it puts pressure on it, tightning it up and takes the wobble out of it. In addition, have you oiled it?
 
This site will have most if not all the information you need: http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_dept_.htm

I didn't have time to watch more than a few minutes of your videos but the first thing you should do is make sure there is enough oil in the platter bearing. The inner platter either pulls straight up (better to keep turning as you pull up) or you may need to remove a "hook" underneath first. Get the old oil out, foam-tipped swabs are best for this. As lint-free as possible in any case. Use a good engine oil. I've also had success with mineral oil from the medicine cabinet. Exact kind of oil is not critical at this point, as long as it's clean. Just so you have peace of mind while you work on it. You can play around with fancier oils later. About 10 drops into the well, if memory serves, and coat the spindle, too, before you put it back. Again, spin, and give it time, all the air in the well needs to squeeze by that spindle, it can take a good while to settle down. Keep a rag handy to wipe off any excess.

The motor does sound worrisome but it may just need lubrication. You're in luck, your 165 has the protective post next to the drive pulley. Many motor shafts on units that don't have this have been damaged by the platter in transport (ask me how I know), which is bad news.

The pulley contains a spring-loaded felt disc that serves as a clutch. You should be able to push the top portion down to reveal a tiny grub screw in the rim of that brass disc. You'll need a small metric Allen wrench for that. Do press down on the disc as you loosen the screw, otherwise it will get launched by that spring. Take note of how the pieces of the clutch and pulley go together. Now you can apply a tiny bit of thin oil to the motor shaft, and clean the pulley parts.

When you have it back together, don't run it without the outer platter. Instead, put the platter on upside down so you can see what the pulley and belt are doing with all the weight that's supposed to be there.

Adjusting the springs properly is an art in itself but for a start, with the TT unplugged, take the feet and bottom off and prop it up level on books or food cans. There are three springs with nuts for height adjustment. Adjust so the platter (with the mat and an average weight record) floats level, as well. Lots more info at that website above.
 
Can you feel play in the motor when you move the spindle back and forth? Meaning, does it feel like a bearing is bad and the shaft has a wiggle or movement. I'm assuming it does, and when you attach the belt it puts pressure on it, tightning it up and takes the wobble out of it. In addition, have you oiled it?
I did. Cleaned everything up and then applied oil - lots of play in the motor shaft. It did seem to run a bit better after that with the platter on but it is still audibly noisy.
 
This site will have most if not all the information you need: http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_dept_.htm

I didn't have time to watch more than a few minutes of your videos but the first thing you should do is make sure there is enough oil in the platter bearing. The inner platter either pulls straight up (better to keep turning as you pull up) or you may need to remove a "hook" underneath first. Get the old oil out, foam-tipped swabs are best for this. As lint-free as possible in any case. Use a good engine oil. I've also had success with mineral oil from the medicine cabinet. Exact kind of oil is not critical at this point, as long as it's clean. Just so you have peace of mind while you work on it. You can play around with fancier oils later. About 10 drops into the well, if memory serves, and coat the spindle, too, before you put it back. Again, spin, and give it time, all the air in the well needs to squeeze by that spindle, it can take a good while to settle down. Keep a rag handy to wipe off any excess.

The motor does sound worrisome but it may just need lubrication. You're in luck, your 165 has the protective post next to the drive pulley. Many motor shafts on units that don't have this have been damaged by the platter in transport (ask me how I know), which is bad news.

The pulley contains a spring-loaded felt disc that serves as a clutch. You should be able to push the top portion down to reveal a tiny grub screw in the rim of that brass disc. You'll need a small metric Allen wrench for that. Do press down on the disc as you loosen the screw, otherwise it will get launched by that spring. Take note of how the pieces of the clutch and pulley go together. Now you can apply a tiny bit of thin oil to the motor shaft, and clean the pulley parts.

When you have it back together, don't run it without the outer platter. Instead, put the platter on upside down so you can see what the pulley and belt are doing with all the weight that's supposed to be there.

Adjusting the springs properly is an art in itself but for a start, with the TT unplugged, take the feet and bottom off and prop it up level on books or food cans. There are three springs with nuts for height adjustment. Adjust so the platter (with the mat and an average weight record) floats level, as well. Lots more info at that website above.
Looking at the motor pulley, I see no brass anything nor can I figure out how to disassemble. Looks to me like the whole pully assembly is Nylon (you can see it in the shorter vid 3). Is it perhaps missing pieces? I downloaded the operator and service manuals but they are not very good - very poor quality with regards to motor assembly....

I think I saw one photo in another forum showing a brass piece in the well of the nylon pulley (maybe I am wrong)????

New issue has cropped up. Plugged it into my amp and was hearing a hum. I grabbed a hold of the right RCA jack and squeezed a bit and hum went away. Real cheesy RCAs on the unit (pretty sure they are original) and looks like they used to be mated together and cut. Guess that is the next order of business - replace the RCA jacks. Is it best to just put new RCA plugs on or replace the entire cable. I think I read somewhere it is best to leave as original as possible as it was all designed to work properly as a system so beafing any one thing (like the plinth above) might make it worse. Any truth to this as I am not one to buy in on the wire mythologies touted by others???
I think I did hear the wires on this were uber thin....
 
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I did. Cleaned everything up and then applied oil - lots of play in the motor shaft. It did seem to run a bit better after that with the platter on but it is still audibly noisy.

So, either a bearing or the shaft is worn. I can't say I'm familiar with the motor on that table but I'm assuming if you can't rebuild it, it'll need replaced.
 
OK so first off, sorry for not realizing before that the eBay listing was in Canadian dollars. Still, I think at that price point you have a lot of options. Any competent woodworker, pro or amateur, should be able to build you something really nice. There's not a lot of wood in it, either. Take a look around at vinylnirvana.com for some awesome custom Thorens work.

In fact, that's probably who you're buying the spare AS hanger arm from.

I thought I saw the brass disc in the video. Also possible I'm mixing this up with the Mk II version which is what I had, many years ago (TD145, in fact, which is the same thing except with auto-lift). In which case, sorry for the confusion. But do take a look at the Thorens Dept., they have step by step photos for servicing the pulley, under TD160.
 
No worries - happens a lot - it wasn't that long ago when our scooter bucks were at parity and we were buying left and right from the US. Now, it simply ain't worth it with shipping and the like. Case in point - went to the Vinyl Nirvana site and wanted to buy the $18 replacement 45 adpater which equates to $25.50 CDN. It is free postage in the US but when I say I am from Canada (British Columbia) it gives me a posatge fee of $24 US so tack on an additional $35.43 for shipping for a grand total of $60.93 - all for a 15 cent piece of plastic (regardless of how rare it is) - he has 3 as of this post. A dollar here is still a dollar so buying from the US is simply not an option these days. Hate to say it but I think we might need another Enron or housing bubble fiasco to bring things in line because it is hurting business there just as much since us Canucks (A G7 country despite our size) used to spend huge bucks down there (me especially since I lived in Maryland for 3 years on military exchange)
;-)

Right now am exploring purchasing a motor silencing kit from Vinyl Nirvana via ebay. Hopefully it pans out over a new motor and shipping rates are less retarded.... Spare hanger I sourced from North Vancouver. Should get here in a day or so....

Eventually the Thorens will hopefully reside where the big ugly duck TT resides below (jump to half way in vid):
 
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Well, Vinyl Nirvana is run by an active member here (and several other places), ddarch. You may want to ask him for a shipping quote directly, it sounds to me like the calculator on the website may be off.

As for the hum, my guess is the connectors. RCA connectors are very poorly standardized. If a previous owner had to force them to fit their amp, they are oversized now, and the fully molded style that Thorens used is difficult to bend back. Plus 50 years of oxidation. I'd say while these were good quality in their time, you can do better now. Particularly since it's only a short run to your amp.

I see your ad on Canuck Audiomart, good luck. Forcing myself not to go on a shopping spree there. A Delphi Mk II for $500 US...
 
Yeah prices are sweet for you folks - definitely a buyers market for our friends to the south. There are a few hot spots in Canada for Vintage Audio - one is right here (being the Florida of Canada and a huge retirement community) with usedvictoria.com being a highly fluid site (happy to play middleman if you see anything you like). Usedottawa.com is also a big one since it is an international city with all the embassies etc. Craigslist Vancouver and Kijiji Calgary are some other good ones I poke around in from time to time...
Haven't poked around much in Toronto and Montreal to see what they follow (UsedXXX.com, Craigslist or Kijiji) but they are huge cities with large markets like Vancouver.....
Canuck Audio is good but it is hard getting a good deal there as everyone knows there stuff usually. The treasures are usually had on the used for sale sites ;-)

I actually have two ads on Canuck Audio right now. The other is for tireless search for a Fisher MT-6250 (preferred but would settle with MT-6224 or MT-6225). I would trade the Thorens in whole or partial trade in a heartbeat to get one of these TTs - not for sonic perfection but purely out of nostalgia. Got out of audio part way through my military career after a long run of dabbling and selling hifi (mid to high end) before that and going through many many pieces of kit. For me it has all boiled down to what was my most satisfying system? It ended up being the first system I ever bought brand new (also my first system ever) as a young 18 year old base brat on a military base overseas (Germany) in 1978. That system was a Pioneer SA-9500II amp, TX-8500II Tuner, HPM-100 Speakers, CT-F1000 Tape Deck, SG-9800 EQ bought a little later and of course my Fisher MT-6250 - man it sounded good! I sold the system years later when I got into more high end vs midfi but always regretted it. I found myself always simply trying to achieve what I already had at considerable expense. Soooo, about six years ago I started on a mission to get it all back. Nearly there minus the tape deck (who uses tape decks anymore?) and the elusive Fisher Turntable. I narrowly bought a MT-6224 a few weeks back but the guy was simply asking too much. I refuse to pay more than what I paid for it new back then 450 Deutche Marks or about $200. When I saw the Thorens I couldn't help myself but it really is a stop gap measure until I find my rare Fisher ;-)

 
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Nice find! I bought a TD145 MKII a few months back that I've been cleaning up. I'm certainly no expert but here are some thoughts, your plinth looks great, why replace it? I'm working on replacing my bottom plate with 1\2 MDF, sounds like you had the same idea. I bought isolation spike feet for mine when it's done. The dust cover looks serviceable, some acrylic polish will bring it back to life. The RCA cables on mine were the same crappy gray cables you have, absolutely replace them. Nothing fancy, just something newer. My TT has no ground wire, so you may not have one either. It's the way they were designed. I have the same blue paint on the screws on my TT. Probably from the factory. After I made adjustments I used blue fingernail polish to touch up. The suspension is critical. As mentioned above, check out the anologdept regarding this! The pulley on your motor spindle is the original plastic pulley. I believe the brass pulleys you've seen online are aftermarket replacements.
The play in the motor spindle is concerning. I don't think sound dampening will address the problem. You may be looking at replacing the motor, which shouldn't be a huge deal but needs to be considered. This is where I bow out...as I have not attempted this. You will have a great table when you're done. Congrats!
 
Tim, congrats on the 165. It's in terrific shape. You said you want to restore rather than hotrod it, and there are a couple of easy and very inexpensive mods that will tighten it up and improve it's performance dramatically without altering the look and feel of it. As Bang rightly mentioned, go to the analogdept.com. site and spend some time there. The Thorens service manual will also be helpful in setting up the anti-skate as well as the counterweight, and the THORENS BAERWALD ARC PROTRACTOR will be very useful in dialing in the arm and cartridge. Btw, the ant skate piece is a pop on piece. As for the anti skate weight, the smaller one is really all you need. I'm no expert but I believe the brass nut mentioned that is supposed to be inside the spindle is for the TD-160, not the 165. Yours looks correct, although it is making some noise. I would opt for a cleaning and oil first rather than a new motor.

I've had my 165 since '77 and it continues to serve me well. The TP-11 arm is considered "heavy" at 16.5gr., and is ideal for an LOMC cartridge like the Denon 103r (which I use). You will need a SUT or phone stage, but it is so worth it! I use the Music Hall PA 1.2. I also use Pioneer amplification. I used the SA-6500 II for many years with AR 17 bookshelf speakers. More recently I use a Pioneer SX-1010 with Boston Acoustics A 150 Series III's.

Some considerations:
1.Replace the bottom fiberboard with 1/2" birch. Some people drill a hole or two in the bottom. $5
2. Replace the stock "feet" with the set from Vinyl Nirvana. $12
3. The blue paint on the springs was put on at the factory. The sponges in their was for shock absorption. Leave them alone, but loosen up the springs a bit. That will take away the scraping you mentioned. And do it just a little at a time!
4. I would leave the cables alone as they were spec'd as the proper cables to use by Thorens, but I would use Deoxit contact cleaner on the RCA plugs to clean them up. I would use Deoxit on the head shell connectors, NOT on the tone arm head shell receptors.
5. Leave the plinth alone. That is the look of the 165. You can add material underneath if you feel you need to deaden it more, but the birch really tightens it up.
6. I use an Audioquest sorborthane mat. Some people use cork. To me the sorborthane mat is ideal for holding the record in place for better imaging YMMV.
7. Replace the cartridge with a Denon LOMC. I think it's a great match.


Good luck with it!

VV
 
Congrats on the turntable! .... I declined to pick it up Saturday night when you emailed the seller (while I was on the phone with him) and confirmed you were coming by on Sunday AM to look at it.

.... you're welcome!
 
Tim, congrats on the 165. It's in terrific shape. You said you want to restore rather than hotrod it, and there are a couple of easy and very inexpensive mods that will tighten it up and improve it's performance dramatically without altering the look and feel of it. As Bang rightly mentioned, go to the analogdept.com. site and spend some time there. The Thorens service manual will also be helpful in setting up the anti-skate as well as the counterweight, and the THORENS BAERWALD ARC PROTRACTOR will be very useful in dialing in the arm and cartridge. Btw, the ant skate piece is a pop on piece. As for the anti skate weight, the smaller one is really all you need. I'm no expert but I believe the brass nut mentioned that is supposed to be inside the spindle is for the TD-160, not the 165. Yours looks correct, although it is making some noise. I would opt for a cleaning and oil first rather than a new motor.

I've had my 165 since '77 and it continues to serve me well. The TP-11 arm is considered "heavy" at 16.5gr., and is ideal for an LOMC cartridge like the Denon 103r (which I use). You will need a SUT or phone stage, but it is so worth it! I use the Music Hall PA 1.2. I also use Pioneer amplification. I used the SA-6500 II for many years with AR 17 bookshelf speakers. More recently I use a Pioneer SX-1010 with Boston Acoustics A 150 Series III's.

Some considerations:
1.Replace the bottom fiberboard with 1/2" birch. Some people drill a hole or two in the bottom. $5
2. Replace the stock "feet" with the set from Vinyl Nirvana. $12
3. The blue paint on the springs was put on at the factory. The sponges in their was for shock absorption. Leave them alone, but loosen up the springs a bit. That will take away the scraping you mentioned. And do it just a little at a time!
4. I would leave the cables alone as they were spec'd as the proper cables to use by Thorens, but I would use Deoxit contact cleaner on the RCA plugs to clean them up. I would use Deoxit on the head shell connectors, NOT on the tone arm head shell receptors.
5. Leave the plinth alone. That is the look of the 165. You can add material underneath if you feel you need to deaden it more, but the birch really tightens it up.
6. I use an Audioquest sorborthane mat. Some people use cork. To me the sorborthane mat is ideal for holding the record in place for better imaging YMMV.
7. Replace the cartridge with a Denon LOMC. I think it's a great match.


Good luck with it!

VV

Thanks for the Top Tips VV
The web link you sent doesn't seem to work - maybe site down for maintenance?
Sussed out the anti-skate hanger - how lucky was that that the broken one was the one that is removable. Ordered one from a guy in Vancouver off of ebay - should get it today or tomorrow. Had it been the other hanger I would have been SoL.
;-)
Got the service manual and the operator manuals te day I brought it home - have to say they are not very good. I am actually going to use it with a new Shure M44-7 cart I bought for a DJ table I bought (and am selling locally). While the M44-7 is touted as a DJ cart it has been in use since the 1960s. Bought it more for the spherical stylus and known trait of being a good cart for noisy (old/used) vinyl which is prevalent out here. Very high output but tracks extremely well but high stylus forces (3g). It's what I have now but will no doubt upgrade later and look hard at the Denon in flavour of an elliptical stylus. One thing was confusing is the anti-skate chart but think I have figured it. Will need the heavy weight for now but I was expecting to see two numbers in the table for dry use. If I understand correctly, if my tracking force equates to a number, I anchor the loop on the top armature and drape it over the same number on the hanging armature??? I am actually thinking of modding the turntable to look like this bad boy eventually:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Zarge-chassi...206887?hash=item1a04f35a27:g:bxAAAOSwQJhUh~VD
I want to first address all the operating and tuning issues as a stock unit first then attempt to dress it up over time. Will likely do the bottom replacement as you say very soon as the bottom is simply cheap - should be real easy to copy. Same with the feet - they are real crap on mine. A couple are even split from rubber deterioration. I do have to replace the RCA connectors as they are intermittant when I grab onto them They are simply no longer functional or trustworthy (have a hum - when I grasp them the hum goes away. I believe one is frayed inside) - contemplating using damping material underneath and will change out mat and get a record weight or clamp...
You see - it is dragging me back in after I had got out of vinyl oh so many years ago!!!!!
;-)
 
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Congrats on the turntable! .... I declined to pick it up Saturday night when you emailed the seller (while I was on the phone with him) and confirmed you were coming by on Sunday AM to look at it.

.... you're welcome!
Sorry Van_isle - just had to jump when I saw it. If you can find me a fisher MT-6250, MT-6225 or MT-6224 in good shape maybe we can work a deal????
Turned out I had dealings with the seller before and he was a follower of many of my Vintage audio Youtube posts - small world....
 
Thanks for the Top Tips VV
The web link you sent doesn't seem to work - maybe site down for maintenance?
Sussed out the anti-skate hanger - how lucky was that that the broken one was the one that is removable. Ordered one from a guy in Vancouver off of ebay - should get it today or tomorrow. Had it been the other hanger I would have been SoL.
;-)
Got the service manual and the operator manuals te day I brought it home - have to say they are not very good. I am actually going to use it with a new Shure M44-7 cart I bought for a DJ table I bought (and am selling locally). While the M44-7 is touted as a DJ cart it has been in use since the 1960s. Bought it more for the spherical stylus and known trait of being a good cart for noisy (old/used) vinyl which is prevalent out here. Very high output but tracks extremely well but high stylus forces (3g). It's what I have now but will no doubt upgrade later and look hard at the Denon in flavour of an elliptical stylus. One thing was confusing is the anti-skate chart but think I have figured it. Will need the heavy weight for now but I was expecting to see two numbers in the table for dry use. If I understand correctly, if my tracking force equates to a number, I anchor the loop on the top armature and drape it over the same number on the hanging armature??? I am actually thinking of modding the turntable to look like this bad boy eventually:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Zarge-chassi...206887?hash=item1a04f35a27:g:bxAAAOSwQJhUh~VD
I want to first address all the operating and tuning issues as a stock unit first then attempt to dress it up over time. Will likely do the bottom replacement as you say very soon as the bottom is simply cheap - should e real easy to copy. Same with the feet - they are real crap on mine. A couple are even split from rubber deterioration. I do have to replace the RCA connectors as they are intermittant when I grab onto them They are simply no longer functional or trustworthy (have a hum - when I grasp them the hum goes away. I believe one is frayed inside) - contemplating using damping material underneath and will change out mat and get a record weight or clamp...
You see - it is dragging me back in after I had got out of vinyl oh so many years ago!!!!!
;-)

Tim, this link should work http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_dept_.htm
 
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