What’s wrong with my ears?

Rdenney

Well-Known Member
On impulse, and because I was driving by, I stopped at the nearest full-service Magnolia to listen to new stuff and recalibrate my ears.

It was an illuminating experience, but it served to convince me that audio is going in a funky direction. And not in a good way. My perceptions are so counter to my expectations that I am wondering what’s wrong with my ears.

My current system comprises Advent NLA’s in good condition driven by a B&K Reference 125.2, an SAE preamp, and a Tascam CD player (among other things). I have used an SAE parametric EQ and a real-time analyzer to flatten the system in my room. Not much adjustment was required, either, at least not since I repaired issues with my speakers. My speakers are suboptimal in their placement, to be sure—too high, too close to the ceiling on one side, backed up to the wall, etc.

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But I was really, really disappointed with what I heard at the store. I listened to a couple of pairs of B&W bookshelf speakers, and also the bookshelf-sized KEF R’s. And a pair of very expensive Martin Logan floor-standing electrostatics with sub-woofer enclosures down at the floor (and driven by a McIntosh amp).

Surprise 1: The bookshelf speakers could only attain moderate listening levels with the demo receiver (Denon, supposedly 225 wpc) turned all the way up. Really? My 125-wpc B&K can attain ear-splitting levels in a room of similar size, through not-so-efficient acoustic-suspension Advents. Huh?

Surprise 2: Though the pricier B&W bookshelf speakers I heard in the higher-end room were louder (driven by a Rotel amp of very large physical size), they and all the others I heard were boomy in the 100-Hz range. To the extent I was checking the tone controls.

The source material was the Canadian Brass, and I KNOW what they sound like, live and recorded. I have shared a stage with them a couple of times. I can usual tell which tuba Chuck Daellenbach is using on a recording just by listening, and his sound is idiosyncratic to me. But none of this even sounded like a tuba—it sounded like a bass synthesizer. The French horn sounded like a euphonium—too round and open. The horn and the trombone sounded the same, and even the tuba when played high.

Now, I’m not just suffering from Advent Expectation, though it would be reasonable to assume so. I regularly play in my own quintet and I know what the real instruments sound like. I was expecting less bass—modern bookshelf speakers are microscopic compared to the 2-cubic-foot Advents, and only subs had drivers as big as the10” drivers in the NLA’s. So I was expecting the response to roll off at 50 Hz or so. But I was also expecting more clarity across the spectrum, and what I got was considerably less.

Maybe it was all those other passive radiators in the room—I expected that to undermine the experience as it always used to. But I also expected everything to sound basically good. I felt like I was listening to plastic boom boxes—nothing of the supposed advances in speaker design came through to me.

I thanked the guy and fortunately didn’t take him away from any real customers.

What’s wrong with my ears?

Rick “really surprised” Denney
 
Boomy sells, and, unless they moved speakers for each demonstration, the speakers were probably not in the optimium location. Plus, they could not be all that good, even if they are expensive.
 
I'll share an anecdote. A long time ago, probably more than 20 years ago, I stopped into a high end audio boutique nearby, and had a listen to a pair of Martin Logan hybrids that were being demoed at the time (it wasn't my demo, they just happened to be playing when I stopped in). I'd heard about ML but never actually listened to them before. Well, to be honest, I wasn't all that impressed.

But just recently I picked up a pair of ML SL3s off Craigslist (for all I know it was the same model I heard all those years ago). I demoed them in the seller's home, and they sounded acceptable (I basically just wanted to ensure that they were working properly) but again, not fantastic. But when I got them home and set them up properly (a few feet away from the back wall) they amazed me; I finally heard the "speakers disappearing" and huge soundstage that many members here rave about with their setups.

So I suspect that room setup may have a large part to do with it. Retail listening rooms are certainly less than ideal. And as far as the bookshelves not playing loudly, was there an equipment switcher between the speakers and receiver? Possibly that could account for the reduced output - it may have some sort of limiter.
 
Yes, the demo room was less than ideal, and there was indeed switching equipment. But I’m surprised it was that limited—loud sells as much as boom does.

The Martin Logans didn’t have a wall behind them, which is probably very suboptimal. But my room is also suboptimal. World of difference.

There’s something about Advents that make them work in spite of everything. But I also get really good sound (near field in that room) with my $100 Pioneer speakers in an Adcom 535. Those are thoroughly modern. They really sound great on axis, but even from one side, they sound better than what I heard today. And they are loud and realistic, except for the limited bass extension. They are NOT boomy at all, and I run them on the Adcom without EQ. I would be curious to hear them in that demo room.

(Now, I’m thinking about adding another pair of Advents to these—a real throwback to goofiness of the past, and I have a pair that needs repair with parts on the way—but one pair runs out of steam at less than 100 dB SPL from my listening position, and is like to explore the possibility of them sounding like live musicians.)

Rick “not tempted to upgrade by what I heard” Denney
 
B&W have a 6 to 10 db peak for the 10 K octave making them bright and rather austere. Kef's have always been zippy AND UN-NATURAL SOUNDING IN MY BOOK. The B&K amp is a very nice amp with great sound, and though I own SAE EQ's their pre-amps were not the greatest or at least some models. But I tend to agree speakers today don't sound natural most of the time. All the current manufacturers want to do it seems is produce the sound the engineers hear at their mixing consoles not what the musicians sound like in a live performance. There is always two or three schools of thought on the subject. I f you like what you're hearing at home, then keep it. And be happy you don't have to spend big money to never be happy again.
 
B&W have a 6 to 10 db peak for the 10 K octave making them bright and rather austere. Kef's have always been zippy AND UN-NATURAL SOUNDING IN MY BOOK. The B&K amp is a very nice amp with great sound, and though I own SAE EQ's their pre-amps were not the greatest or at least some models. But I tend to agree speakers today don't sound natural most of the time. All the current manufacturers want to do it seems is produce the sound the engineers hear at their mixing consoles not what the musicians sound like in a live performance. There is always two or three schools of thought on the subject. I f you like what you're hearing at home, then keep it. And be happy you don't have to spend big money to never be happy again.

I’m probably not that picky. The SAE preamp sounds good to me—in the sense that I don’t hear it intruding. And a brass quintet isn’t subject to much mixing. They were recorded together, perhaps in up to several takes, with I would suspect a three-mike setup and minimal processing. What the engineers heard on their monitors was probably pretty close to real. These aren’t mixed to sound good on bad systems such that they sound so noticeably bad on good systems. A brass quintet needs dynamic room, but is usually recorded with a little space to let studio room acoustics work some magic.

It wasn’t the top octave that bothered me. I can’t hear most of it anyway. My hearing drops off pretty quick about 12KHz, except for the tinnitus in my left ear which rings an about that frequency. (Age-related.) It was the emphasis or congestion (or whatever) at 100-300 Hz that made instruments not sound like themselves, plus a lack of dynamics. The trombone, horn, and tuba overlap in range significantly, but not in timbre. They need to sound different.

But my office system has a rather distinct philosophy from the system pictured above—the Adcom is not known for the tube-like warmth (or “MOSFET haze,” which I don’t hear) of the B&K, and the little Pioneers are highly regarded for clarity, but obviously limited in their bass extension and volume potential. But both sound real enough not to undermine the willing suspension of disbelief, and I hear music. The experience at the store was fundamentally different. Sound has to be pretty bad for me to be so put off.

I keep reading where Advents were good in their day but uncompetitive at similar price points with newer offerings, and I had (have?) no reason to doubt the truth of that. I don’t want to be so sentimental about my old Advents that I shoot myself in the foot. I was listening to speakers that start at a coupla thousand a pair—15 times what I paid last week for another old pair of NLAs just to get the nicer cabinets—hoping to recalibrate my sense of what makes good sound.

They just don’t make speakers that can go on a bookshelf big enough and with enough volume to make bass, but again that’s not my issue, else my office system would be unlistenable. It seems all design decisions these days center on home theater and assume a sub-woofer. Or something.

Rick “what am I missing?” Denney
 
I’m probably not that picky.

They just don’t make speakers that can go on a bookshelf big enough and with enough volume to make bass, but again that’s not my issue, else my office system would be unlistenable. It seems all design decisions these days center on home theater and assume a sub-woofer. Or something.

Rick “what am I missing?” Denney

I think "Bookshelf" vs "Stand-mount" would be my guess. There are small speakers that will do amazing bass and soundstage like crazy. They will demand power. I've heard Dynaudio with proper amps deliver the goods mightily. As a trumpet player that frequently sat right in front of the low brass, I appreciate what you say about some of the other small speakers and congested bass. They get the attack of a kick drum to sound pretty good, but lack "Air" on the bass imo.
 
I have OLA Advent speakers. Yes I would expect a boom from your Advent on the left. But I don't have your correction equipment. So I use a bit of toe to get by. I don't keep the Advent because it's the best speaker here. It's here because it's remarkable good. If it were the only speaker in the room I think I would be very happy with it.
Your recent store experience doesn't compel me to buy any new speakers off the internet.
Thanks for the review.
 
When I sold back in the 70's, we had our regular room and our high end room. In the regular room, all of the speakers were on a wall. They pretty much all sucked. Even the JBL L100's. ;)

The ones in the high end room were all floor standing speakers. And they all sounded great. It used to really tick me off when trying to sell the "regular room" stuff. I often would explain to customers what was going on and, often, would remove the speakers from the wall and put them on makeshift stands on the floor to enable them to REALLY compare them. I took the job pretty seriously. :)
 
People don't read books anymore or collect them either in the ways they use too. So finding good furniture that can hold a pair of AR-3a's or Mcintosh ML-1c is almost impossible anymore. B&O 5700's and a few Altec and JBL models like the L100 won't work either. Even the small Klipsch Hersey would be hard to place on a shelf now days. Speaker sound depends on the room and how the speakers are placed in the room, too. I come from the old school that woofers shouldn't be used much above 250' hz due to cone break-up which can cause some of the. issues you are talking about. Its hard to find the clarity you are looking for, I have to use room voicing to get rid of a broad 6 to 8 db peak centered at 150 hz with my speakers do to room placement I cannot change. You say you like brass, as do I. Have you heard of the Mnozil Brass from Eastern Europe . They are very talented and Olay many types of music. You may want to watch them on Youtube first to catch some of their antics first. They also participate in Schagerl Concerts. Schagerl is a famous Czech Brass and percussion instrument manufacturer. They make a Superbone with rotary valves and a big bore tenor trombone with a F attachment that is unlike anything you have ever seen before. Their trumpets with rotary valves are very unique. They have a few albums on iTunes and they are touring the eastern US this year.
 
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Are you sure the Denon was turned all the way up? On mine all the way means it's at 0. Until you reach 0, there are negative numbers listed...
 
Go listen to a pair of Bryston Mini-T bookshelf speakers then come back and tell me all about the short-comings of current-model stand-mount speakers.
Thank you for that—part of my goal is to learn about stuff I don’t know about. Based on reviews, the Mini T seems to be my kind of speaker—extended bass, highly dynamic, positional flexibility, and mid-bass clarity. I’ll search out an opportunity to listen to a pair, and start saving my pennies.

I note that it is bigger and heavier than all “bookshelf” and most “stand-mount” speakers, at least approaching the size of the classic acoustic-suspension boxes. Other makers should take note.

Rick “sensing a strong set of design priorities” Denney
 
People don't read books anymore or collect them either in the ways they use too. So finding good furniture that can hold a pair of AR-3a's or Mcintosh ML-1c is almost impossible anymore. B&O 5700's and a few Altec and JBL models like the L100 won't work either. Even the small Klipsch Hersey would be hard to place on a shelf now days. Speaker sound depends on the room and how the speakers are placed in the room, too. I come from the old school that woofers shouldn't be used much above 250' hz due to cone break-up which can cause some of the. issues you are talking about. Its hard to find the clarity you are looking for, I have to use room voicing to get rid of a broad 6 to 8 db peak centered at 150 hz with my speakers do to room placement I cannot change. You say you like brass, as do I. Have you heard of the Mnozil Brass from Eastern Europe . They are very talented and Olay many types of music. You may want to watch them on Youtube first to catch some of their antics first. They also participate in Schagerl Concerts. Schagerl is a famous Czech Brass and percussion instrument manufacturer. They make a Superbone with rotary valves and a big bore tenor trombone with a F attachment that is unlike anything you have ever seen before. Their trumpets with rotary valves are very unique. They have a few albums on iTunes and they are touring the eastern US this year.

Yes, I’m familiar with Mnozil Brass—a great group.

My first decent tuba was made by V. F. Cerveny in Hradec Kralove in northwestern Czech(oslovakia, in those days). That area is called the “musical corner”, where they have made brass instruments basically forever. Cerveny invented the modern rotary valve, along with the C contrabass tuba, in the 1840s or so. I own (and use for quintet playing) a B&S Symphonie F tuba with six valves, made in Markneukirchen, in the former GDR, just over the line from Hradec Kralove. Both were value instruments, depending on the hunger for foreign currency in the Second World at that time (now, such instruments are made in China). The B&S, despite its low price before unification, is still a classic.

The tuba in the picture is a Hirsbrunner HBS193, a Bb kaiser contrabass tuba. I’m not sure a better orchestral rotary Bb tuba exists (maybe an Alexander 164 despite challenging intonation), and I feel extraordinarily lucky to own it.

I also own a classic (in a different way) Holton BB345, in the grand orchestral style made famous by Arnold Jacobs of the Chicago Symphony. Both are large, made for large ensembles, and very deep sounding. Their differences are as much about how they project as their spectral differences. I expect my sound system to reveal enough of their differences that I can tell which style of tuba was used.

You could melt either one down and make four of the little tubas Chuck Daellenbach used in the Canadian Brass, even though it is also a contrabass tuba in C. I expect to hear the compactness of that instrument, too.

Even my old Advents can do that. :)

Rick “maybe not a keen ear, but an experienced one” Denney
 
Are you sure the Denon was turned all the way up? On mine all the way means it's at 0. Until you reach 0, there are negative numbers listed...
That’s what the guy said. I didn’t look at the volume control. I doubt the speakers cracked 80 dB, and I didn’t even have to raise my voice to talk to the guy.

Rick “sure it wasn’t the speakers” Denney
 
At my Magnolia, The B&Ws driven by Rotel were absolutely lifeless.

But the B&W 802D driven with the McIntosh 600W Monos had the biggest and tallest soundstage and the music just oozed out effortlessly.
 
At my Magnolia, The B&Ws driven by Rotel were absolutely lifeless.

But the B&W 802D driven with the McIntosh 600W Monos had the biggest and tallest soundstage and the music just oozed out effortlessly.

If that's what the B&W's require, then I'm not in the market for them. But I'm not exactly sure that what I was hearing was mere lifelessness, whatever that means.

Rick "agreeing, if it means lack of dynamic range" Denney
 
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