What causes speakers to sound 'boomy, not clear, muddy'?

[redjr]

Thanks guys,

I will try 'everything' you guys mentioned above. :yes: I really like the toilet paper roll for listening. Bet it works like a charm.

The SP-2000 crossovers are not easy to recap because of the size of the new caps, being larger... but it can be done.

Again, I really appreciate all your help. :thmbsp:

You can also just place your ear as close as possible to see if any sound is comning from the mids, or tweets. I easily detected that I had two bad tweeters on my HPM-100s when I first got them just by putting my ear up against the tweets. You'll know whether any sound is coming from them. The tubes may focus the sound, but really not needed.

 

[bluesky]

Hey guys, he's saying he's got another pair of the same speakers that don't sound the same at all. All this talk about bad crossover design and cabinet tuning and whatnot, is all well and good, but regardless of that, these speakers don't sound like the other pair.

I second the driver operation > check pots > recap approach.

Some crossovers also have caps in the bass section that are supposed to shunt midrange that gets through the inductor, and similarly in the midrange to shunt treble. Bad caps can make the thing sound crappy all over.

As toxcrusadr mentioned, I do have another pair of SP-2000s that sound really good and function properly. So I know the speakers in question...something is wrong with them.

Thanks redjr.

Here is my plan so far. (please correct me if I'm wrong or another step should be added):

1. clean and lube the L-Pad/pot type switches, on the crossover, with DioxiT and DioxiT D5 lube (I believe it's called. I have both)
2. check all wires, trim ends if required.
3. check solder joints
4. use the toilet roll test of each separate speaker in the cab.
5. remove woofers in question and install the woofers in my good pair of SP-2000s and test and listen how they sound. If they sound good...it's not the woofers.
6. on speakers cabs in question, resolder all speaker connections on 'all' speakers.
7. test. If it still sounds boomy and dull...
8. then it would 'have to be' crossover (caps), maybe. Not much else left.

Does anyone want to add a step or two??

---

ALSO:
Since I have all 4 cabs apart...
1. I could buy a digital volt meter, or whatever the meter is called, from Radio Shack and I could test the individual speakers for 'continuity', if that's the right word. I'm new to this. Would that be a good idea? If so...
2. What 'readings' should I be looking for? For a woofer____, mids____, regular tweets_____, and super tweet____?
3. I don't know if the 'wires' from the crossovers to the individual speakers are ok??? but if I desired to change them out, if green colored (42 years old), what size wires do you guys use for the woofer, mids, and tweets?_____. Is there any prefered brand? _____
4. When the speakers are out, what should I be looking for when I look at the individual speakers?
5. What is the best type of solder to use?

I just want to get a "Basic Plan' of attack together before I start this project. You know, I just really want to do restoration the right way the first time.

Thanks guys. I really appreciate your help and input.

 

[KingBubba]

Back in the late seventies, I and bought an SX 1250, but I didn't have enough money to buy speakers. I tapped the output of the SX into the speakers inside an old Maggie tube console. It worked great until I had too much to drink one night and burned up the voice coils in the woofers. I had been auditioning speakers for quite a long time which included the ESSs, the Altec Series II, Sansui SP series, Pioneer HPM series and the DCM Timewindows.

I was always disappointed with any of the examples from the Sansui Speakers. They sounded exactly how the original poster describes. They were muffled and muddy, but they sure were beautiful. I finally ended up with Altec Series II Model 3s.

I think what you are hearing is just what those speakers sound like, from my personal observation in the past. It is a shame because they are so handsome. I personally think you will have a lot of work and replacement to get those to ever sound good.

 

[bluesky]

Back in the late seventies, I and bought an SX 1250, but I didn't have enough money to buy speakers. I tapped the output of the SX into the speakers inside an old Maggie tube console. It worked great until I had too much to drink one night and burned up the voice coils in the woofers. I had been auditioning speakers for quite a long time which included the ESSs, the Altec Series II, Sansui SP series, Pioneer HPM series and the DCM Timewindows.

I was always disappointed with any of the examples from the Sansui Speakers. They sounded exactly how the original poster describes. They were muffled and muddy, but they sure were beautiful. I finally ended up with Altec Series II Model 3s.

I think what you are hearing is just what those speakers sound like, from my personal observation in the past. It is a shame because they are so handsome. I personally think you will have a lot of work and replacement to get those to ever sound good.

I know, Sansui speakers aren't the best speakers in the world. :>) But they are fine for me. The pair that I am using right now sound pretty good really. I bought this NOS pair ($75) because the Cabinets are NOS 'brand new'.

I do want to restore them because:
1. The cabs are brand new!
2. I really want to take everything apart and restore them, for the knowledge. A fun project and a learning experience. And the end result is a nice pair of SP-2000s

I don't mind dumping a $100 or $150 into them if I can get them up to spec. Again, not only for the speakers but for the learning experience in speaker restoration.

If all else fails...I can take everything out of the working pair and put all the componets into the NOS cab pair.

 

[RayW]

2. What 'readings' should I be looking for? For a woofer____, mids____, regular tweets_____, and super tweet____?

That will depend on the individual drivers. Measure the ones from the good cabs and see if the others match. That's about the only way to do it without an original spec sheet on the drivers.

4. When the speakers are out, what should I be looking for when I look at the individual speakers?

Bad surrounds and rubbing voice coils.

I think what you are hearing is just what those speakers sound like, from my personal observation in the past. It is a shame because they are so handsome. I personally think you will have a lot of work and replacement to get those to ever sound good.

Did you read the part, posted several times now, where he has a pair that sounds good and one that doesn't? Obviously something is different between them and it's not just that the speaker sucks. Your, my, or anyone else's opinion on the quality of sound from Sansui speakers is completely irrelevant to this discussion. The OP likes pair #1 but not pair #2 so he wants to make pair #2 sound like pair #1.

 

[jlovda]

what causes speakers to sound crisp, muddy, etc? let's see.. here's a short list:

1. room acoustics/treatment
2. speaker positioning
3. amplifier power/damping
4. source material
5. EQing
6. speaker cabinet materials/design/quality
7. (maybe) speaker decoupling (spikes vs flat on the floor)
8. your aural perception.

Ear wax

 

[Dave1027]

I know, Sansui speakers aren't the best speakers in the world. :>) But they are fine for me.

Back in the day, nobody I knew would touch a Japanese speaker with a ten foot pole. For that matter, wouldn't be caught running any Japanese equipment except maybe Nakamichi. I guess we were snobbish that way.

 

[Dave1027]

what causes speakers to sound crisp, muddy, etc? let's see.. here's a short list:

1. room acoustics/treatment
2. speaker positioning
3. amplifier power/damping
4. source material
5. EQing
6. speaker cabinet materials/design/quality
7. (maybe) speaker decoupling (spikes vs flat on the floor)
8. your aural perception.

You forgot the most important item. The drivers themselves. That should be number one on the list. Good sound begins with decent drivers. Also, proper crossover tuning, I'd put that as number 2.

 

[srinath]

I picked up these kabuki's, kenwood kl 777's. High spl and high wattage and all the rest be damned. Its got 15's in a heavy sealed cabinet and these things thump, and the plates and cups and the whole room thumped. It was louder near the cupboard than in front of the speaker. 6 driver 4 way mega monsters ... they stage poorly but as near as I can tell they do everything else pretty good, loud clear good highs and good lows.
Cool.
Srinath.

 

[sebrof]

The problem is that the speakers sound really boomy, undefined dull base response, not clear, or maybe the term is very muddy. To put it bluntly, they sound really bad. Like, there is something wrong! Big time.

Maybe it's because they are Japanese, Sansui, or have a bad design or bad components.

Oh wait, I just read the multitude of posts that say you have 1 pair that sound fine, and this 2nd pair that sound bad and nothing like the identical other pair.
So maybe something is wrong with the 2nd pair?!? OP - Did you ever think of that??

 

[redjr]

...Did you read the part, posted several times now, where he has a pair that sounds good and one that doesn't? Obviously something is different between them and it's not just that the speaker sucks. Your, my, or anyone else's opinion on the quality of sound from Sansui speakers is completely irrelevant to this discussion. The OP likes pair #1 but not pair #2 so he wants to make pair #2 sound like pair #1.

Thank you Ray.

 

[toxcrusadr]

At that age I'd be replacing those caps way before doing a bunch of that other stuff. If the drivers all work and you don't hear buzzing or crackling but only music (even if crappy music), recap the crossovers.

If the pair you're using has original caps, you may have been lucky or the regular use has kept them in better condition than the ones that sat. Electrolytic caps especially will act this way. And they usually are found in the woofer circuit. Just sayin'.

 

[Susurus]

I'll try taking the Sansui badge off. Think that would work??!!

Immensely!.

There are actually higher pressures developed in a ported box than sealed. It seems counterintuitive but it's real. A leak in a ported box changes the tuning so dried gaskets or something like that can mess up the sound.
...

Interesting. I need to buy more glue sticks for the hot gun and draw beads along the inside edges of my ported sets then. Or something similar.

.

 

[bluesky]

That will depend on the individual drivers. Measure the ones from the good cabs and see if the others match. That's about the only way to do it without an original spec sheet on the drivers.

Bad surrounds and rubbing voice coils.

Did you read the part, posted several times now, where he has a pair that sounds good and one that doesn't? Obviously something is different between them and it's not just that the speaker sucks. Your, my, or anyone else's opinion on the quality of sound from Sansui speakers is completely irrelevant to this discussion. The OP likes pair #1 but not pair #2 so he wants to make pair #2 sound like pair #1.

Thanks RayW. Great idea, I'll just match them to the speakers I know work correct. Why didn't I think of that! :>)

Surrounds are fine. I'll do what I have to do to check the voice coils too.

I know people 'bash' Sansui speakers all the time. That's ok. I know they aren't the greatest speakers in the world, certainly not the worst, but they do sound pretty good really, especially for being 42 years old. You know, the 'big box' sound, no sub required. Kabuki, yes, but nice cabs, the mids and woofers all have AlNiCo magnets, and they honestly sound ok, the working pair. I don't play music loudly anymore and usually play at lower volumns anyway now a days. The SP-2000s sound plenty good enough for me. Not bad speakers really. I like them. I am a Sansui collector and it just rounds out the collection. All Sansui. It's really not a bad sounding speaker system. They did sell for $1000 back in 1970, not cheap by any means. At the time they are TOTL speakers for the Mid-Fi folks. Sansuis and Pioneers.

At that age I'd be replacing those caps way before doing a bunch of that other stuff. If the drivers all work and you don't hear buzzing or crackling but only music (even if crappy music), recap the crossovers.

(QUOTE] If the pair you're using has original caps, you may have been lucky or the regular use has kept them in better condition than the ones that sat. Electrolytic caps especially will act this way. And they usually are found in the woofer circuit. Just sayin'.

I know, with my working pair I'm just lucky. They have always been used so I think that may be why the caps still function 'ok'. It has to be that reason, no other reason. But 'YES', I will be doing a complete crossover/cap restoration on the bad sounding pair first.

Just so everyone knows, information only, with these speakers, Sansui designed them to specificaton and then tweeked them to sound 'lifelike and real'. They do sound lifelike and real. I can hear it easily, a very comfortable sound. The music sounds 'live' and 'in person'. I do like them.


Thanks to everyone for your advice! Getting the speaker restoration plan together!

 

[toxcrusadr]

No real need to defend your speakers here man. Any post about a piece of gear has a 37% chance of at least one judgemental response about it that is off topic from the original post. It's the law of the Interwebz!

 

[bluesky]

No real need to defend your speakers hear man. Any post about a piece of gear has a 37% chance of at least one judgemental response about it that is off topic from the original post. It's the law of the Interwebz!

Thanks toxcrusadr.

Not really defending them really. I like them, actually I really like them. The good pair sound pretty good. Cool.

I'm just really glad you guys are giving me advice so I can get my restoration plan together! You know, take them apart, put them together. Don't want to make any mistakes like: "Oh...I guess I should of done that too before I put them all back together!" haha

Thanks to all. :thmbsp:

 

[EddyR]

BlueShy With 3,300 post I would think you would have heard your question a hundred times before. Do a search on Sansui and you will see it is rather common for one set to be good and the next to be not so good. Why not switch drivers from the good set to the bad set one driver at a time,but you should know that. I had a set of the Sansui SP300's and they were very good. Your crossovers are shot
Ed

 

[KingBubba]

Jeepers. I wasn't trying to create a storm. All I was pointing out was an opinion. The issue could also be when the good sounding cabinets were built as compared to the build date of the muddy sounding cabinets. Sansui had a reputation for changing things in mid stream. I was not trying to flame all Sansui speakers. I was trying to point out that the speakers you have, that don't sound good, may have come from a period of time when all of the products from Sansui may have had issues. This may be the era of time that I did my listening. I apologize if any offense was taken; none was intended.

 

[fly135]

Have you even tried turning the level controls on the back for the mid and highs? I recently picked up a pair of Pioneer CS-63DX speakers. When I hooked them up the left one was as you describe... boomy and muddy. In my case it was the high level control that needed some cleaning. When I switched the position of the control the speaker came to life.

You need to get that paper towel tube and see if your mids and tweeters are working.

 

[Ken Boyd]

Back in the late seventies, I and bought an SX 1250, but I didn't have enough money to buy speakers. I tapped the output of the SX into the speakers inside an old Maggie tube console. It worked great until I had too much to drink one night and burned up the voice coils in the woofers. I had been auditioning speakers for quite a long time which included the ESSs, the Altec Series II, Sansui SP series, Pioneer HPM series and the DCM Timewindows.

I was always disappointed with any of the examples from the Sansui Speakers. They sounded exactly how the original poster describes. They were muffled and muddy, but they sure were beautiful. I finally ended up with Altec Series II Model 3s.

I think what you are hearing is just what those speakers sound like, from my personal observation in the past. It is a shame because they are so handsome. I personally think you will have a lot of work and replacement to get those to ever sound good.

Not all Sansui speakers sound bad, but they only made a few models that I consider decent, but they are quite difficult to find and not many of them were made for import to the US.