What causes speakers to sound 'boomy, not clear, muddy'?

[Ken Boyd]

The Sansui speakers I purchased sounded awful. Then I replaced the surrounds, and rebuilt the crossovers and they sound quite good. I have to admit when you have some speakers of different brands and types, line sources, verses two way horns, it takes a bit to get use to the different kind of audio that the different speakers produce. If a person has a pair of speakers that he is use to your brain seems to kind of get attached to that specific sound and then listening to a different pair just doesn't seem right. You have to just force yourself to give your ears and brain time to get adjusted to the different sound before you can make a rational judgement.

 

[bluesky]

Jeepers. I wasn't trying to create a storm. All I was pointing out was an opinion. The issue could also be when the good sounding cabinets were built as compared to the build date of the muddy sounding cabinets. Sansui had a reputation for changing things in mid stream. I was not trying to flame all Sansui speakers. I was trying to point out that the speakers you have, that don't sound good, may have come from a period of time when all of the products from Sansui may have had issues. This may be the era of time that I did my listening. I apologize if any offense was taken; none was intended.

Same exact speakers, same year, same model, same cabinets. I think the crossovers have bad caps from never being energized for 42 years. But it may be the pots too.

I've researched Sansui SP-2000s and have gotten a lot of information. These are just the 'last questions' before I dig into the project. Figured that I would ask in the speaker section of AK. You can never have too much information. Like: yes, I do have to use my good speakers for a test platform for the other speakers. Just gotta do it.

I'm going to switch out speakers and test with the meter and soundwise, then it's to the pots and caps. I know the exact caps required so I will put in the order as soon as I pull out the crossovers.

I appreciate the help guys. It's nice to get feedback from you guys who know about these things and have experience with these type of symptoms and repairs before I start taking everything apart! You know, proper planning. This will be my first speaker restoration and don't want to mess anything up. Just doing the research now. I'm sure they will come out of this restoration singing!

The Sansui speakers I purchased sounded awful. Then I replaced the surrounds, and rebuilt the crossovers and they sound quite good. I have to admit when you have some speakers of different brands and types, line sources, verses two way horns, it takes a bit to get use to the different kind of audio that the different speakers produce. If a person has a pair of speakers that he is use to your brain seems to kind of get attached to that specific sound and then listening to a different pair just doesn't seem right. You have to just force yourself to give your ears and brain time to get adjusted to the different sound before you can make a rational judgement.

Exactly. I'm used to the Sansui sound from the 70s. Works for me. :>)

I may try out some new (used) speakers in the near future...after I totally mess up my Sansuis! haha. I've been thinking about JBLs for years. I'll try this Sansui restoration first.

BlueShy With 3,300 post I would think you would have heard your question a hundred times before. Do a search on Sansui and you will see it is rather common for one set to be good and the next to be not so good. Why not switch drivers from the good set to the bad set one driver at a time,but you should know that. I had a set of the Sansui SP300's and they were very good. Your crossovers are shot
Ed

I think I did ask about muddy sounding speakers years ago, once, but I really can't remember what the answer was. I've never read any posts about dull or muddy sounding speakers but yes, I should check past threads, I will. Anyway, I'm just desiring all of your input so I do this job the right way. Yes, I'm going to switch the drivers one at a time, that's a really good idea!! For sure that would tell the individual speakers function.

I really don't want to take apart the speakers I am using now, that sound good, but guess I'll have to, to test my other speakers. Why not. What could possibly go wrong?

I'm 85% sure it's the caps. 10% sure that the pots are slightly corroded from sitting around 42 years without being rotated. And 5% sure it's maybe something else.

This will be a fun project.

1. Would you use the same internal 1970 tweet, mid, and woofer speaker wires...or change them out to new ones? Would a different wire affect original sound?

2. Seriously, would it be a good idea to change out the push button speaker wire clips, on the back of the speakers, to bananna type clips. Good idea?, or just continue to used the spring loaded clips installed with bare wire??

Guess that just about answers all the questions.


Thanks again. I really appreciate all your advice.

 

[bluesky]

Have you even tried turning the level controls on the back for the mid and highs? I recently picked up a pair of Pioneer CS-63DX speakers. When I hooked them up the left one was as you describe... boomy and muddy. In my case it was the high level control that needed some cleaning. When I switched the position of the control the speaker came to life.

You need to get that paper towel tube and see if your mids and tweeters are working.

Yes, I do need to DioxiT the switches on the back first! I will be doing the paper towel tube test 2nd. These will be the very first two things I do. :thmbsp:

 

[ymarko]

Can you please tell us if your mids and tweets working?

Just listen to them. It was suggested on the 1st page of this thread. You don't need anything (roll of paper or not, it really doesn't matter). It should be done as the 1st step before anything else.

What's the point to discuss speaker placement, cabinet leak, and other fancy ideas if mids/tweets don't work?

 

[budgetaudio6]

plus one or two for swapping the woofers between the good and bad.

 

[bluesky]

Can you please tell us if your mids and tweets working?

Just listen to them. It was suggested on the 1st page of this thread. You don't need anything (roll of paper or not, it really doesn't matter). It should be done as the 1st step before anything else.

What's the point to discuss speaker placement, cabinet leak, and other fancy ideas if mids/tweets don't work?

Speakers are still in the boxes in the closet, where they have been for years. I'm in the: 'I'm getting very serious now' planning stage to do the project. Almost ready to take them out of the box, for the 2nd time, and let the speakers will once again see the light of day.

Getting a game plan together, step 1-2-3-4-5..., because once it starts...it doesn't stop until they are finished. Or I blew em up, in which case I will just transfer the guts from the working pair into the perfect cabinets (hopefully with all new caps).

That's where I'm at right now, at this moment.

 

[spkrdtr]

Can you please tell us if your mids and tweets working?

Just listen to them. It was suggested on the 1st page of this thread. You don't need anything (roll of paper or not, it really doesn't matter). It should be done as the 1st step before anything else.

What's the point to discuss speaker placement, cabinet leak, and other fancy ideas if mids/tweets don't work?

+1 I think some folks enjoy the planning more than the doing. :sigh:

 

[redjr]

+1 I think some folks enjoy the planning more than the doing. :sigh:

When the planning is done right, the doing will be easier and the end result most likely better.

There's a saying in my business, but can be applied to just about anything - "You don't have time to do it right, but you time to do it over."

 

[spkrdtr]

When the planning is done right, the doing will be easier and the end result most likely better.

There's a saying in my business, but can be applied to just about anything - "You don't have time to do it right, but you time to do it over."

In this case, the planning can't be 'done right' if the diagnosis of the root cause isn't known. Based on the OP's comments on the character of the sound, the most logical first step in the diagnosis process would be to determine if there is indeed any MF and HF output!

 

[redjr]

In this case, the planning can't be 'done right' if the diagnosis of the root cause isn't known. Based on the OP's comments on the character of the sound, the most logical first step in the diagnosis process would be to determine if there is indeed any MF and HF output!

I agree. One of the first steps should be the diagnoses of the issue to determine the problem. No argument there.

 

[redjr]

One thing I thought of that I don't believe has been mentioned yet - was to simply swap out the pair in question and replace them with his known working pair that sounds good to him. Physically put the second pair of speakers in the exact location, room placement and all, to see how they sound under the same conditions. This would have ruled out the room acoustics coloring or influencing the sound where he was previously listening to the 'bad' pair.

As has been mentioned before; (1) test the drivers!, (2) check the xo switches, (3) Deoxit the switches, and (4) replace xo caps, (5) listen.

 

[knollr]

My two cents. Old speakers have an old sound. Usually flat and lifeless unless they were Higher end types. Today everyone is use to big tight subs and crisp highs. This simply did not exist back then (70-80's). Hell, most bands could not even afford to make a decent recording back then and dont get me started on the monitors we had to use!

 

[ymarko]

...when you have some speakers of different brands and types, line sources, verses two way horns, it takes a bit to get use to the different kind of audio that the different speakers produce. If a person has a pair of speakers that he is use to your brain seems to kind of get attached to that specific sound and then listening to a different pair just doesn't seem right. You have to just force yourself to give your ears and brain time to get adjusted to the different sound before you can make a rational judgment.

This should be curved in stone. Brain attachment.

 

[bluesky]

In this case, the planning can't be 'done right' if the diagnosis of the root cause isn't known. Based on the OP's comments on the character of the sound, the most logical first step in the diagnosis process would be to determine if there is indeed any MF and HF output!

It's going to be a total restoration project. So a game plan, step by step, is vital before work commences. I still need to order caps too.

I'm going to be going through everything. All new caps. Check out each speaker, wires, etc.

Once everything is checked, restored, or refurbrished, then I may even get the AlNiCo magnets re-magnetized too up in Tampa, if required. But that is a bit of an expense.

Just want to get a plan together, step by step, that's all. I've got one going now. When done, I can post it if you want.

It will be a month before this project gets going. I don't want to mislead anyone.

I really do appreciate the help.

One thing I thought of that I don't believe has been mentioned yet - was to simply swap out the pair in question and replace them with his known working pair that sounds good to him.

As has been mentioned before; (1) test the drivers!, (2) check the xo switches, (3) Deoxit the switches, and (4) replace xo caps, (5) listen.

That is exactly what I am going to do. That's the basic plan. Pretty simple. Do all that, then take it from there. Thanks!! :thmbsp:

 

[Artie]

The SP-2000 crossovers are not easy to recap because of the size of the new caps, being larger... but it can be done.

Wouldn't new age caps be smaller?

+1 I think some folks enjoy the planning more than the doing. :sigh:

Yup. You have no idea how many units I "plan" to fix/mod. It is much of the fun. :thmbsp:

Artie

 

[spkrdtr]

Wouldn't new age caps be smaller?

Yup. You have no idea how many units I "plan" to fix/mod. It is much of the fun. :thmbsp:

Artie

Yeah, I'd like to see your plan. Pls. post.
If it involves buying a bunch of stuff before you find out the root cause of your bad sound, you may be making a mistake. What if you have a bunch of blown drivers? A recap, rewire, etc. won't help.

New age caps are film type and most are larger than their electrolytic equivalents.

 

[Turbo Archie]

Oh wait, I just read the multitude of posts that say you have 1 pair that sound fine, and this 2nd pair that sound bad and nothing like the identical other pair.
So maybe something is wrong with the 2nd pair?!? OP - Did you ever think of that??

This is what I was going to post.

Figure out what is broke on your old set and break the new set to match.. I read you have to unplug half the drivers to get them to sound good.

Also, are you sure they have the same drivers???
I also read they didn't always use one type of driver.


I only really like one song on my new sp-3500's. Its Emerson, Lake , and Palmer "From the beginning" they sound good pushing 350w/ch with that one!!!


..

 

[Turbo Archie]

Oh,

I haven't dig into mine yet but one problem I do have is the surround.

I could hear some light buzzing and thought the cabinet had come loose. It turned out the glue holding the surround to the cone had failed in a spot and was buzzing. You almost can't see it but I can stick my fingernail in and pull the surround away from the cone.. FYI.



..

 

[musichal]

I guess you've already checked the surrounds on the woofers? Even boxed in a closet, time does its thing. So caps, too - but deoxit worth a shot. Remember you can have more than just one problem, so check those woofer surrounds.

:yes:

 

[bluesky]

Wouldn't new age caps be smaller?
Artie

The surrounds are not normal surrounds. They are impregnated wool/cardboard or something like that. They last forever.

In the AK Sansui section there has been a few guys who have rebuilt the crossovers in SP-2000s, among other Sansui speakers, and have posted before and after photos.

The new age caps are 'much larger', unfortunatly. So large in fact that to use the same crossover board, with the inductors, etc., mounted to it...caps are so large they have to be 'stacked" (and glue gunned and tie strapped) to fit. Or, make a new board which is just asking for trouble, especially from a beginner like me. But I will look at it. It's all right there. Just put your "thinking cap on" and be super careful in a totally un-interupted atmosphere, for a couple days. It's not easy to make the new caps fit but it can be done, I've seen the photos of completed crossovers. The guys say do not rush into it, proper plan the squeezing of all the caps on the board, do it again, then do it for real...no mistakes.

ESR in another thing. I need to find someone with an ESR meter. To expensive to buy, $500.

I don't believe that I will need to get the AlNiCo magnets remagnitized, but we'll find out. AlNiCo(s) sound wonderful but they do have problems too, especially when played repetively loudly. They need to be remagnitized, then...as good as new.

Anyway, once this project gets going...it will be a fun experience.