What effect does "Effective Tip Mass" or moving mass have on a cartridge?

Cosmo-D

Active Member
So from what I have gathered low effective tip mass, or moving mass (I'm just gonna call TM), or whatever is obviously better when comes to cartridges. But how low does it need to be perform its job or reproducing audible signals? What are the consequences of too great a TM? I would imagine that any cartridge with an overly large TM would be unable to trace higher frequencies as the inertia of the cantilever assembly would be too great to allow it to change directions (accelerate and decelerate) at the same rate as the grooves. Thus its frequency response would stop above a certain point.

However, most cartridges (even old designs like the Denon DL-103) will reproduce frequencies well above what human could potentially hear (say 22kHz being the absolute theoretical maximum). From this can we conclude that the TM of any reasonably good cartridge is low enough to allow for "perfect" reproduction of all audible frequencies? I know Technics made a cartridge with perhaps the lowest moving mass ever. It had signal response up to 100kHz. This is impressive, but not especially useful. If a cartridge can reproduce all the audible frequencies at reasonable level, is there any reason to seek a lower TM? I assume many cartridges can get flat frequency response within the audible range using comparatively (that is compared to what is available) crude aluminum cantilevers and ordinary generators (the Denon DL-103 responds at -2dB or so at 20kHz, the DL-301 is basically flat as well, as is the DL-110 likely has a pretty heavy generator being a HOMC cartridge), so I am not really impetus for things boron, and ruby/sapphire cantilevers.

Is there something I am missing to this whole TM thing? While lower is theoretically better, most cartridges would seem to be "good enough" as they can playback the audible range of frequencies at useful level.
 
That's an interesting point you bring up, I've wondered that myself. I enjoy the sound of some of my older cartridges that have bonded conical tips. The "nude" hyper-ellipticals I own, which have lower tip mass, sound smoother but don't necessarily reproduce higher frequencies, at least not to my ears.
 
That's an interesting point you bring up, I've wondered that myself. I enjoy the sound of some of my older cartridges that have bonded conical tips. The "nude" hyper-ellipticals I own, which have lower tip mass, sound smoother but don't necessarily reproduce higher frequencies, at least not to my ears.

Interesting. A "nude" hyper-elliptical should have less mass than a bonded conical, but it also depends on the weight of the generating elements, the length of the cantilever and how far along the cantilever the elements are positioned. What are the cartridges you are using? I only referenced Denon's because they are one of the few companies for which there are frequency response graphs readily available (the Denon's I bought ship with one from the factory with the engineer's stamp).

If your ellipticals are MC cartridges, it is possible the loading is affecting the high frequency response. Not enough resistance can attenuate the high frequencies. Then again depending on the capacitance MM cartridges can suffer loss of high frequencies as well. I've seen it posited that the electrical properties of a cartridge represent more of a barrier to "flat" reproduction than physical construction.
 
I would think tip mass plays a relatively minor role in how well the cart performs over all. If it's a stylus, it's in the ball park. The shape of the stylus is far more significant in terms of sq. as is cart geometry. So is compliance.
 
Engineering departments typically have to surround a problem, in this case tracking high frequencies as best as possible, by squeezing many parameters all at the same time. They need to play off the consequences both good and bad against each other.

Marketing departments on the other hand like to find any edge or supposed improvement that makes their product stand out and then typically blow it way out of proportion.

Lowering tip mass in theory is all good but so is dampening for example. The ability to resolve frequency approaching green is great marketing but ridiculous in the real world.

Reading spec sheets can give you a clue.....excessive claims of greatness always makes me wary but in the end actual real world testing is what matters.
 
Resonant frequency goes up with lower ETM, the system recovers faster from transient events, etc. Damping can cover up some problems, but it’s usually best to move them as far away as possible.
 
C-D: Think sports car - i.e., just like a sports car should at least provide superior handling compared to a well-motorised sedan on more demanding tracks, those ultra-low ETM and typically high to very high compliance carts/needles were designed to cope with very demanding records that require very high tracking abilities. Such records are comparatively rare, though - and that quite understandably, as record companies would usually have little interest to produce records an average hifi turntable wouldn't cope with.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
 
Resonant frequency goes up with lower ETM, the system recovers faster from transient events, etc. Damping can cover up some problems, but it’s usually best to move them as far away as possible.

But if it can adequately respond at all frequencies, shouldn't transients pose no problem? Transients don't seem to be a problem on the DL-103. Even the most subtle reverb is evident. What am I missing?
 
I would think tip mass plays a relatively minor role in how well the cart performs over all. If it's a stylus, it's in the ball park. The shape of the stylus is far more significant in terms of sq. as is cart geometry. So is compliance.

What is the role of compliance? Many expensive MC designs are low compliance (at least in comparison to inexpensive MM cartridges which will track reliably at 1.5g or less), yet are touted as having superior detail and dynamics. I would think low compliance would be a draw back, but many supposedly "high performance" designs are fairly stiff.
 
But if it can adequately respond at all frequencies, shouldn't transients pose no problem? Transients don't seem to be a problem on the DL-103. Even the most subtle reverb is evident. What am I missing?

Transient event - pop, click, etc. It takes time for the assembly to calm down after it hits an obstacle. The more mass the longer it takes.
 
Is there something I am missing to this whole TM thing? While lower is theoretically better, most cartridges would seem to be "good enough" as they can playback the audible range of frequencies at useful level.
There's your answer right there. Why shouldn't practice follow theory? The quest for low mass isn't done anymore because it's too hard, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.
 
Transient event - pop, click, etc. It takes time for the assembly to calm down after it hits an obstacle. The more mass the longer it takes.
very good. the loudness, and duration of the event is the amount of time the diamond is basically swinging in free air.
 
Transient event - pop, click, etc. It takes time for the assembly to calm down after it hits an obstacle. The more mass the longer it takes.

This we can measure. My DSO can store the resultant generated waveform for a 'pop' and I could try different carts and arms on that same 'pop'. Trouble is, my 'pop' would be different to your 'pop'. Could be interesting to look at though.

very good. the loudness, and duration of the event is the amount of time the diamond is basically swinging in free air.

You see it like a car going too fast over a speedbump or getting airborne across a humped intersection running a red light?
 
This we can measure. My DSO can store the resultant generated waveform for a 'pop' and I could try different carts and arms on that same 'pop'. Trouble is, my 'pop' would be different to your 'pop'. Could be interesting to look at though.



You see it like a car going too fast over a speedbump or getting airborne across a humped intersection running a red light?

Measurements would be amazing. Not too sure what "pop" or click would look like exactly. I think clicks and the like tend to be in 10kHz range, IIRC. The amplitude is usually the same or louder than the music.

The only problem with car analogy is that if the needle were doing such a thing it would probably result in audible mistracking or skipping after a transient event. While annoying pops and clicks don't tend interrupt playback, nor do they seem to affect the music that follows them once bad section of groove has been cleared.

If you've got some way of measuring anything, I am interested. I don't have the capacity to do so myself.
 
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This we can measure. My DSO can store the resultant generated waveform for a 'pop' and I could try different carts and arms on that same 'pop'. Trouble is, my 'pop' would be different to your 'pop'. Could be interesting to look at though.



You see it like a car going too fast over a speedbump or getting airborne across a humped intersection running a red light?
for you to hear it, the stylus had to generate voltage across the coils. the longer the duration of the event, the longer the stylus is swinging.
 
The only problem with car analogy is that if the needle were doing such a thing it would probably result in audible mistracking or skipping after a transient event. While annoying pops and clicks don't tend interrupt playback, nor do they seem to affect the music that follows them once bad section of groove has been cleared.

Oh, they do.
 
There's your answer right there. Why shouldn't practice follow theory? The quest for low mass isn't done anymore because it's too hard, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

I feel like after a certain point though it doesn't matter so much. You still have VTF to act on the needle. That is going to provide acceleration in the downward direction (the grooves are going to accelerate it upwards) proportional to the mass of the whole assembly. So long as everything is sufficient to allow it to follow all the modulations you really don't need lower mass. Ideally you want to use as little tracking force as possible, but the amount depends not only on keeping whole assembly grounded but also on the compliance of cartridge. The groove need to be able to "push" hard enough in order to actuate the springy cantilever. I don't know enough physics to model the whole thing.
 
Easier to look at the waveform in a DAW.

A DSO samples at 1Ga/S- much faster. We can capture risetimes and pre-post ringing events from the pop that an ADC in a DAW will miss. It will top out at Nyquist for it Fs.

It's like people who post pretty pics of squarewaves captured on a soundcard front end- all the harmonics are gone and not visible due to the decimation filter.

I'll give it a go over the weekend just for fun.
 
Oh, they do.

How? What you be hearing? Would it be a change in frequency response? You'd some kind of test. If you had a pure tone recorded then you could look at what it does to the signal after a transient event.
 
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