Where is your point of diminishing returns?

[Tom Bombadil]

There are several amps in the $1000 to $2000 range which sound quite good to me, especially if I am buying used gear. The same for preamps, disc players and DACs. Speakers are another story. I don't think I've ever heard a pair of speakers going for less than $5000/pr which have done much for me. Many are okay and sound fine for everyday listening, but none have really drawn me into the music or raised the hairs on the back of my neck. I suspect there must be some out there which would do it for me, but have never found one. In general, I would estimate that my bar for diminishing returns on speakers starts to happen at around $15,000/pr, but that isn't a hard, definitive line. I got lucky on this score as I have speakers which eventually sold for over $20,000/pr but I have only $3500 into them.

Certainly I agree with RGA that it happens all the time where someone likes a less expensive speaker more than a much more expensive speaker. I've heard expensive speakers which drove me out of the room.

 

[sqlsavior]

I think there are two points of diminishing returns, two "knees of the curve", if you will. The first would be the classic bang-for-the-buck, budget-audiophile point, where money spent above entry-level provides very good returns indeed. The second would be the point where spending more likely won't make much difference with regard to how much you can hear on your recordings. It may make other worthwhile differences, but not an increase in conveyed information.

Here are my estimates for components at those two points, using new list prices:

speakers $600, $12000
amp $20, $5000
cartridge $300, $1600
phono preamp $400, $2500
line preamp $50, $600 w/o remote or $10000 w/ remote
turntable $1500, $10000
CD player $300, $2500

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Natasha Bell]

Where is your 'Point of Diminishing Returns' ?? The point at which an additional dollar spent no longer returns an additional dollar's worth of improvement?

For loudspeakers, for me anyway, astonishingly low. For me, about the price of a good set of bookshelf speakers, maybe 249 or 299. Obviously more if you need ground-shaking bass (I don't) and full disclosure requires me to admit that I now have five pairs of floor-standers all of which cost more than that--some much more.

Amplification--again, I'm a hypocrite. I have a couple of stupid expensive amps and several cheap ones. They all sound different! But no way are the expensive ones worth 20x what the cheap ones cost. Good God, I just did the math and in my house the actual multiple is over 125x. (Simply buying an even cheaper Chinese amp can readily double it to 250x!) Sorry, I say to myself, but there's something ridiculous about that. The sound out of the most expensive one isn't even twice as good as the cheapest. Sigh. Of course 1) sound is hard to quantify and 2) there are other virtues aside from sound quality--capability of driving big speakers, ruggedness, visual appeal, snob factor

CD Players? No idea, but I can say that my Yamaha CD-S700 is no way and no how twice or three times the device a $149 player is. Fortunately I bought it used.

Where do you draw the line, anyway?

I find it very odd that you would scrimp on speakers and splurge on amps, as both work hand-in-hand. To your question: For me, it is not about cost, but about value. Value I define in this case as enjoyment. If I cannot afford a piece I really want new, then perhaps I can get it used.

 

[jrtrent]

I find it very odd that you would scrimp on speakers and splurge on amps, as both work hand-in-hand.

Not to speak for Archguy, but in my experience, it's not a matter of scrimping on speakers and splurging on amps, it's just that there have been many low-cost speakers that are capable of satisfying me, but only when driven by a good quality amplifier. A not uncommon occurrence when I sold audio equipment was for a potential customer to walk in looking for speakers, but when you have him bring in his current speakers and amplifier for some comparative auditions (or do a home demonstration), he often finds that his speakers weren't the problem, and he got the sound he was looking for by getting a better amplifier that allowed his speakers to perform up to their potential. One example was my brother's cheap (about $70 a pair) Jensen bookshelf speakers that he let me borrow for an extended period because they weren't terribly satisfying with his Onkyo receiver. Switching to an NAD integrated made a nice improvement, and with a Naim integrated, the increase in dynamics and resolution compared with the Onkyo was truly amazing. Seemingly cheap, blah speakers were now, with the right amplifier, making music that could captivate me for hours on end.

 

[nailer]

I find it very odd that you would scrimp on speakers and splurge on amps, as both work hand-in-hand. To your question: For me, it is not about cost, but about value. Value I define in this case as enjoyment. If I cannot afford a piece I really want new, then perhaps I can get it used.

DFW isn't the same w/o you.

 

[Natasha Bell]

DFW isn't the same w/o you.

Perhaps not My husband took a new position, so we moved. I am actually enjoying the far more quiet life. Friendly people, far less traffic, and a much slower pace. Besides, I found a new position as well in my field and while it pays a bit less than I was making, I also don't have to drive nearly an hour each way.

 

[bobins08]

Diminishing returns? I don't think I am close to that ...

Still discovering which brand of "different" I like best.

 

[Archguy]

line preamp $50, $600 w/o remote or $10000 w/ remote

That is a VERY expensive remote.

I find it very odd that you would scrimp on speakers and splurge on amps, as both work hand-in-hand. To your question: For me, it is not about cost, but about value. Value I define in this case as enjoyment. If I cannot afford a piece I really want new, then perhaps I can get it used.

I don't actually scrimp on speakers. I just find the price/performance curve bending at that point. But most of mine are below 1000/pr except for my Infinitys which were $1700 (I think) but I got them used/refurbished. (That made them a very good deal.) In most of the zones I'm running, the speakers cost (much) more than the amps.

Perhaps not My husband took a new position, so we moved. I am actually enjoying the far more quiet life. Friendly people, far less traffic, and a much slower pace. Besides, I found a new position as well in my field and while it pays a bit less than I was making, I also don't have to drive nearly an hour each way.

Congrats on your move. I used to be in Washington DC and before that NYC and I don't miss them much. Commuting like that is for the birds! Time is more valuable than money imho. Though, for a good while in NYC, I could walk to work and that's very agreeable indeed.

 

[Natasha Bell]

I don't actually scrimp on speakers. I just find the price/performance curve bending at that point. But most of mine are below 1000/pr except for my Infinitys which were $1700 (I think) but I got them used/refurbished. (That made them a very good deal.) In most of the zones I'm running, the speakers cost (much) more than the amps.

I currently have a pair of vintage Polk Audio Monitor 7s, which I replaced the tweeters and had the crossovers rebuilt about a year ago. For my musical tastes and listening room, these speakers sound amazing. Currently, I am using a Yamaha A-S500 integrated amplifier.which sounds amazing with those speakers. So for me, I think I have found my sweet spot. My only complaint, and it's a tiny one, on the amplifier is that there is no way to hook-up an equalizer or other sound processor. Yet, for the sound quality of the speaker / amp combination, I will gladly overlook that inconvenience.

 

[Natasha Bell]

Not to speak for Archguy, but in my experience, it's not a matter of scrimping on speakers and splurging on amps, it's just that there have been many low-cost speakers that are capable of satisfying me, but only when driven by a good quality amplifier. A not uncommon occurrence when I sold audio equipment was for a potential customer to walk in looking for speakers, but when you have him bring in his current speakers and amplifier for some comparative auditions (or do a home demonstration), he often finds that his speakers weren't the problem, and he got the sound he was looking for by getting a better amplifier that allowed his speakers to perform up to their potential. One example was my brother's cheap (about $70 a pair) Jensen bookshelf speakers that he let me borrow for an extended period because they weren't terribly satisfying with his Onkyo receiver. Switching to an NAD integrated made a nice improvement, and with a Naim integrated, the increase in dynamics and resolution compared with the Onkyo was truly amazing. Seemingly cheap, blah speakers were now, with the right amplifier, making music that could captivate me for hours on end.

Very good points. There are some extremely good, lower-priced speakers out there. I think if I were in the market for a pair of bookshelf speakers, for example, I would closely consider the Elac B6 or Klipsch RP-160M.

 

[Condorsat]

Very good points. There are some extremely good, lower-priced speakers out there. I think if I were in the market for a pair of bookshelf speakers, for example, I would closely consider the Elac B6 or Klipsch RP-160M.

Kef Q100's are selling for $299 on Amazon (Kef bringing out new models) ... outstanding vocal clarity and detail .. benefits by use of sub-woofer IMHO.

 

[patate91]

I think the only thing that could make me spend tremendrous amount of money for a system would be for something unique. Custom preamp/amp, speakers, DAC, etc. IT would need to be a blend of art and craftmanship. No one else on earth would have the same.

 

[Lucky Pierre]

I had monster system for many years that impressed all who listened; likely more for how it looked than how it sounded (although it did sound great). Through house moves and years bit by bit it got smaller and way less visually impressive yet, I still enjoy it. My goal is to devolve to a kitchen radio and still be happy with what I hear.

Get yourself a KLH Model Eight, friend! Or a Model Twenty Seven if you prefer solid state.

 

[soundmotor]

Get yourself a KLH Model Eight, friend! Or a Model Twenty Seven if you prefer solid state.

I am not quite there yet but that is a great choice.

 

[sqlsavior]

That is a VERY expensive remote.

Well, there's more to it than the remote - the remote is just a tell...

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/high-end-separates.666925/page-7#post-9068389