Why is Linn lp 12 so much criticized?

[rlovison]

The "perfect sound forever" was the biggest line of Hifi bull sh*t I have ever heard in my life. And in the midst of it, in 1982 when I purchased my Sondek Lp12 in a time when CD players were selling like doughnuts, I had listened to many, many vintage, DD, and contemporary TT, of the time and liked the sound of the Lp12 better, nothing really compared. Go ahead and believe that most of it was a con job, if that is what you care to believe, but I was there, and the BS around Linn has come from both sides (Linn and Linn naysayers) then and ever since.

The truth is, the purpose of most marketing is to convince the bottom tier consumer that he/she is totally insignificant, lacking in some way, missing out on something, worthless or just plain stupid and the only way she/he can feel better about themselves is to buy their product. And that feeling of happiness after the purchase? We all know how long that lasts so we go out and make more purchases of endless stuff that never fills that void created by the feeling of insignificance. The irony is that most of us will defend to the death our decisions to purchase our stuff sometimes in defiance of any logical argument so as to not feel foolish. Nice game huh?

 

[Pio1980]

The sad bit would be selling off something that worked well for a promised 'upgrade' and then wanting the old set-up back. Oft-times as much as a matter of differing priorities as failure to 'deliver the goods' performance-wise.
YMMV/AYOR.

 

[JohnVF]

The truth is, the purpose of most marketing is to convince the bottom tier consumer that he/she is totally insignificant, lacking in some way, missing out on something, worthless or just plain stupid and the only way she/he can feel better about themselves is to buy their product. And that feeling of happiness after the purchase? We all know how long that lasts so we go out and make more purchases of endless stuff that never fills that void created by the feeling of insignificance. The irony is that most of us will defend to the death our decisions to purchase our stuff sometimes in defiance of any logical argument so as to not feel foolish. Nice game huh?

As somebody who participates in the marketing game, at least the advertising section of it, I can say with full disclosure that it's not nearly as cynical as you make it out to be. Believe it or not, most marketing revolves around the product and trying to make something cool or interesting that really isn't that cool or interesting. And then you target that message to somebody. The feeling of inferiority, if it is there, is often just brought into the equation by the consumer. Notice with Apple..they never say "your old iPhone sucks!". They say "The new iphone is awesome!" and then people themselves feel that their old one sucks. THEY ad that, not the marketer.

 

[guiller]

The truth is, the purpose of most marketing is to convince the bottom tier consumer that he/she is totally insignificant, lacking in some way, missing out on something, worthless or just plain stupid and the only way she/he can feel better about themselves is to buy their product. And that feeling of happiness after the purchase? We all know how long that lasts so we go out and make more purchases of endless stuff that never fills that void created by the feeling of insignificance. The irony is that most of us will defend to the death our decisions to purchase our stuff sometimes in defiance of any logical argument so as to not feel foolish. Nice game huh?

Your comments remind me of a book that I've read recently: The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success, by Kevin Dutton. What you describe is a logical behavior, by the way, at least in some (the majority?) contemporary societies.

 

[GreatTone]

I have to agree with JohnVF. I'm a copywriter, and I write the ads you're talking about. There's nothing sinister like that going on. You can do a great ad about a great product, and it will be very successful. You can also do a great ad about a terrible product, and the company will go out of business that much faster.

 

[VinylRob]

><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯ `· .¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º>‏

The truth is, the purpose of most marketing is to convince the bottom tier consumer that he/she is totally insignificant, lacking in some way, missing out on something, worthless or just plain stupid and the only way she/he can feel better about themselves is to buy their product. And that feeling of happiness after the purchase? We all know how long that lasts so we go out and make more purchases of endless stuff that never fills that void created by the feeling of insignificance. The irony is that most of us will defend to the death our decisions to purchase our stuff sometimes in defiance of any logical argument so as to not feel foolish. Nice game huh?

If your not already a madman, you should be, that or a lawyer, as you try to spin a personal labyrinth that offers nothing beyond your summation. The only flaw in it, is that some of us are quite content and personally fulfilled beyond our physical possessions. Toys are nice, but will never keep one happy. For us, most of life is neither a fantasy or a series of con job traps and the need to create logic to justify anything is a waste of time and effort and frankly, I'm too lazy to pursue it. To suggest we are foolish, probably has some merit, but might surprise you that it is not as you perceive it. No amount, or flavor of Hifi will ever make us more satisfied then we already are, so your point is moot.

As somebody who participates in the marketing game, at least the advertising section of it, I can say with full disclosure that it's not nearly as cynical as you make it out to be. Believe it or not, most marketing revolves around the product and trying to make something cool or interesting that really isn't that cool or interesting. And then you target that message to somebody. The feeling of inferiority, if it is there, is often just brought into the equation by the consumer. Notice with Apple..they never say "your old iPhone sucks!". They say "The new iphone is awesome!" and then people themselves feel that their old one sucks. THEY ad that, not the marketer.

Funny, I was an advertising designer, during and after school, before realizing that I was better suited for industrial work and focusing on the product development. We never really looked at our customers as losers or imbeciles... I seriously feel would not have had many successes with that strategy, or maybe I just worked with enlightened companies, go figure.

Someone needs to go get happy!

 

[Hamstall]

The OP is nicely continued here:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/when-is-an-ariston-a-linn-sondek-lp-12.741974/

 

[grottyash]

Ridiculous thread. Of course it was jealousy. Linn were successful, therefore they had to be cut down to size.

Unfortunately, primarily because of Linn's update policy, the rest fell by the wayside. Better business model wins everytime. Oh, and the LP12 genuinely was/is an outstanding product.

 

[Hamstall]

Ridiculous thread. Of course it was jealousy. Linn were successful, therefore they had to be cut down to size.

Unfortunately, primarily because of Linn's update policy, the rest fell by the wayside. Better business model wins everytime. Oh, and the LP12 genuinely was/is an outstanding product.

Business model was ruthless. Product was not original. The "update policy" is utterly appalling value, and if you bought a deck in 1972, you'd have no original components left.

The design was a good one though.

 

[grottyash]

No, turntables are not original. The AR wasn't, the Thorens wasn't, the Ariston wasn't, the Walker wasn't etc. But one, however, was engineered better than the others, and happily it was the Linn.

Update policy is brilliant value because, guess what, you don't have to apply them. My original model has the Valhalla, and that is where it has stopped. Mind you, I might brace the plinth, but that is something I can probably tackle myself

 

[4-2-7]

Nothing at all that special about the LP12 other than the price, people are willing to pay it, for a so so deck. When you get to that price point there was and is better tables in that class and that was written about quite a lot.

 

[Hamstall]

It was the Ariston that was better engineered though. Here it is look!

 

[Hamstall]

Nothing at all that special about the LP12 other than the price, people are willing to pay it, for a so so deck. When you get to that price point there was and is better tables in that class and that was written about quite a lot.

100%.

 

[grottyash]

Hate to tell you, but the only positive engineering part of the Ariston was the bearing and spindle, and you'd never guess who made them!

13, all I can say is you need to buy an LP12 so you can find out what a good turntable sounds like.

 

[Hamstall]

Hate to tell you, but the only positive engineering part of the Ariston was the bearing and spindle, and you'd never guess who made them!

13, all I can say is you need to buy an LP12 so you can find out what a good turntable sounds like.

I have three!

 

[grottyash]

Hi Hamstall, that wasn't directed at you, but to the egregious 4-2-7 . Hope you're enjoying them - what tonearms do you use, out of interest?

 

[Hamstall]

Hi Hamstall, that wasn't directed at you, but to the egregious 4-2-7 . Hope you're enjoying them - what tonearms do you use, out of interest?

The oldest has a SME3009, the 1978 a Grace G707 and the 2001 job a Black Ittok!

 

[4-2-7]

Lets see I'v had two TD-125, two AR- ES1, and one LP12 in my life among many other tables, none of them even come close in function, performance, sound quality, isolation and musicality to what I own today. Are any of them bad tables, no but I'd buy a TD-125 over a LP12. And if I wanted to spend the price for a LP12 there is lots of tables that do a better job at reproducing music, one of them namely what I do use today.

The thing is the criticism of the LP12 is mostly brought about by the owners of them, talking about it's the end all to play back. When pointed out it's not, they call it hating, and criticizing, well it's not, it just fits in a certain level of table that the price doesn't match. That's why when they used to do price class comparison reviews it never really held it's own.

 

[grottyash]

The oldest has a SME3009, the 1978 a Grace G707 and the 2001 job a Black Ittok!

How are the 3009 and the Ittok? I have an Akito, upgraded by Audio Origami, and a 3009 currently awaiting my 401 restoration. I did wonder about putting it on the LP 12, but am not sure it would be better than the Akito. Also, it's the lowest mass one, which restricts cartridge choice a bit.

 

[L-82]

:thmbsp: +1 The Ariston RD11S I used to own was right there with my AR . The RD11S was pretty much an early production Linn LP12, or vice versa depending who you talk to.

Hi Marc are you saying your AR is and was better? How would you dicribe today's level of your moded AR to today's Linn?
Cheers?
Mo