Why No Love For Technics 1200 By Audio Stores and Audiophiles?

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Audioo

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Everytime i bring up the subject of Technics 1200mk2s in hi end audio stores and when speaking to audiophiles i get a pause or a kind of look down upon this table. Ok its a given that DJs use it but why cannot it be considered a high end musical table if the right cartridge is used? The plinth and motor are quiet and rock solid so why this what I feel is unfair knock on the Technics 1200 as a musical and potentially Audiophile quality turntable?
 
The high end audio stores probably just want to sell you some uber expensive 'table. That's what they are in business for. I've also noticed that some "audiophiles" insist on belt drives. They claim that direct drive 'tables are always noisy, have speed cogging issues, etc. :rolleyes: I don't own a 1200, but that sure isn't the case with any of my other DD Technics 'tables.
 
Everytime i bring up the subject of Technics 1200mk2s in hi end audio stores and when speaking to audiophiles i get a pause or a kind of look down upon this table. Ok its a given that DJs use it but why cannot it be considered a high end musical table if the right cartridge is used? The plinth and motor are quiet and rock solid so why this what I feel is unfair knock on the Technics 1200 as a musical and potentially Audiophile quality turntable?

Don't let this change your perspective of the legendary 1200 -- it WAS originally marketed by Panasonic AS a hi-fi-oriented 'table, and later became popular amongst DJs because of its workaholic reputation and brute strength. I'd kill to have one of the new $4K ones in my system, and it's the deck I aspire to...
 
I feel like it because audiophiles don't understand how a DD functions (there is a lot of misinformation), or because they are victim to all the propaganda in favour belt-drive TT. I don't own a 1200 either. If I were aware them earlier, I definitely would have bought one. I currently have a PS-X800, which I think is a superlative table, but even I will admit the motor design of the new 1200 is pretty impressive and probably bests it. The SP-10 has the lowest (-93dB) rumble I've ever seen on any turntable. I kind of wonder why people bother with mag-lev bearing belt-drives when a SP-10 mk. 3 has such incredibly low motor noise.
 
They're way easier to work on than a Dual so it's harder to charge an exorbitant service fee for minor repairs?
 
Ken Kessler, who has had a very long career as a subjective and high end reviewer praised the SL 1200 -granted, not when the table came out (he may not have even started reviewing then), but later in its production run. It is possible (maybe even common) to overstate the denigration poured on the SL 1200, just as it is possible to overstate the influence of the subjective press - clearly nothing TAS did was sufficient to cut into sales of the table.
There are bad sounding direct drives, both because of bad engineering/cost cutting, and lack of environmental isolation (surprisingly few DDs have suspended subchasises (though some of those that do are close relatives of the 1200)). Apparently it served some purpose for some reviewers to condemn all DDs, just as it served some reviewer's purposes to proclaim their superiority as a class. And don't forget that at the time the first 1200 came out, the high end was going toward very high compliance cartridges (whether or not that was a good idea is not relevant) and the arm of the 1200 wasn't well suited for first generation ADC XLMs, Sonuses, AKGs, and of course, the Shures and Pickering/Stantons and so on. If such cartridges were your standard, the 1200 might not seem so great. Of course, almost immediately, moving coils replaced high compliance moving magnets, but by then, the 1200 was not a new table, so it wasn't an obvious review topic.
It's naive to think that big, technically capable companies like Panasonic/Technics can't build absolutely first rate equipment if they choose to do so. But its not naive not to believe everything that corporations tell us. My own experience is that there are plenty of tables that sound better than the 1200 (I've had a couple of 1200s, liked them, but not enough to keep them), but the economies of scale of a company like Panasonic/Technics make it very, very difficult for other makers to produce better sounding tables at an equivalent price - I'm thinking here of the 1200 at its perfectly (actually astonishingly) reasonable original price, not the current used and reissue prices.
The high end audio press probably did blow it with the 1200, but being suspicious of manufacturer's claims is a good thing, regardless. How many of us are still using our Dynagroove, CD4/SQ, SACD, ElCassette, DAT, minidisc, Dolby 1,2,3,4,5, or wherever they are now, or whatever? And how many Marantz 7T owners wouldn't be very very happy indeed to swap it for a 7, or Fisher 400T for a 400?
 
If I'm remembering correctly--and it's been a lot of brain cells under the bridge--the audio store I liked best here in Pittsburgh back in the day liked direct drive but hated the SL-1200 tone arm.
But they hated it because that was the era of high-compliance carts and low-mass arms. The Technics arm isn't some bridge girder, it's fine for today's cartridges, but it was perhaps too massive for something like a Sonus or ADC or the V15-series Shures.
I don't remember any audio reviews of the Technics but I didn't pay attention to equipment reviews in magazines anyway, never have.
 
One of my local audio stores, Fidelis AV, has a Technics SL-1200GR set up in their main hallway. It may not be in one of their listening rooms, but it's very much visible near the front counter. They also have brochures for the Technics turntable line (SL-1200GR/SL-1210GR/SP-10R) sitting with the other gear brochures on their front counter.

I myself own an original Technics SL-1200 (aka the Mk1), and it's definitely an audio-capable turntable. The tonearm is quite different from what was used on the Mk2 and the rest of the line, but it does a pretty good job for playing records for non-DJ purposes. Granted, I've mostly used my SL-1200Mk1 for radio station purposes, but would be willing to use it in my main system again. :thumbsup:
sl1200_2.jpg

sl1200_arm1.jpg

sl1200_arm2.jpg
 
I'm in Canada and can't remember which company distributed Technics (it might have been Lenbrook) but I do recall the SL-1200 being included in a "Pro" brochure not in that for their home audio line.

As far as I was/am concerned, it was intended for hard, continuous use and able to accommodate/withstand the "tricks" a DJ might employ. There were tables, possibly cheaper than an SL-1200, considered more desirable for home playback which was a less "abusive" environment. It seems to me that SL-1200's came into favour for domestic use relatively recently.

During a 17 year stint with a large, multi location audio/video/music chain which was a Technics dealer, the only purchasers of SL-1200's were dance clubs. I can safely say that none of the sales people, managers or even the audio buyers (the latter always seemed to have the best gear at home) that I was aware of even considered an SL-1200 for themselves. They usually had stuff not even carried in their stores.

When the nature of my employment shifted from sales to insurance replacement, vinyl playback (therefore turntables) were on the decline. There came a time when direct drive turntables became few and far between. By virtue of being direct drive, an SL-1200 was frequently offered to replace a direct drive (as per Like Kind Quality replacement guidelines) no matter what the original was. When I suggested this to clients, some accepted the offer (because an SL-1200's purchase price exceeded that of what they had) but others were not interested and those were the "audiophiles". I either had to special order what they wanted (subject to their adjusters apptoval) or they had to replace on their own.

Whatever the SL-1200 attraction, it sure jacked up the price of late. Even sad, tired examples that have seen better days.
 
The typical mass market direct drive, which the 1200 certainly was, had terrible issues with isolation from the bass output of many speaker systems.

Add to that a marginal arm and the consumer desire for auto or semi automatic tables, just left the Technics missing on both the market segments.

A general weakness of the non turntable products offered by Technics at that time made it difficult for dealers who would be expected to support the whole lineup to add the turntable.
 
That's right! NO LOVE.

I am not an audio shop and I'm only a reasonable audiophile with very little belief in the usual audiogoof gobbledygook like audio cables break-in and the usual stuff that is an insult to intelligence. But yes, I don't have no special love for the SL-12XX, despite the fact that I got two of them. It's not about the direct drive and it's not about speed cogging. It about two things. It's about the ridiculous cult status these tables were elevated to, mainly by inexperienced reddit teenagers and DJ wannabees or by others who couldn't get one new for $350 before October 2010. What can I do... Audiokarma is about karma, but I just don't like this cult nor the subject of it's worship. Second, theses tables just don't sound as good to me as my other turntables, which just happens to all be belt drives and idlers.

It's plain simple. Every time one of you praises the Technics SL-1200 too much here, not for it's sturdiness and reliability (no disputes there), but for it's sound quality, I can't resist digging one up from the packages in the basement and giving it another shot. However, I am always disappointed. I had read some bad reviews about the 1200 where it was claimed they are "dark" sounding. I don't even know what that means. I am just experiencing a disappointing SQ by which the music just doesn't seem to want to get out of the speakers. Over the years I've tried countless carts and set-ups, anything from a Stanton 881S to Denon's DL-160,DL-110,DL-103 and it's always the same. It can sound very good for a few spins, but when I comparison spin a record on a nearby TD-160, the Technics gets packaged again and goes down the basement until the next time someone raves about it.

I am very familiar with the mechanics of the SL. I own one since the 70's and I've been inside it's circuits countless times. I can rave about how it spends years and winters in a frozen place and never fails to start or keep up speed. This was very nice if it was a life supporting machine at Tufts medical. Unfortunately, it's just a turntable in Tom & Patti's living room, and it just doesn't do it's job right and that's why there's no love for it and it ends up in Tom & Patti's basement. Sorry!

BTW, Please don't mention Kevin or the KAB fluid damper. I have no intention of using either of these.
 
Everytime i bring up the subject of Technics 1200mk2s in hi end audio stores and when speaking to audiophiles i get a pause or a kind of look down upon this table. Ok its a given that DJs use it but why cannot it be considered a high end musical table if the right cartridge is used? The plinth and motor are quiet and rock solid so why this what I feel is unfair knock on the Technics 1200 as a musical and potentially Audiophile quality turntable?

Perhaps you have an inferiority complex, in that you expect some audiophile to praise a certain table that you like? Audiophiles are not one group of people that fit in one small box that you can group them all together. The turntable you want praised is often mentioned as a good mid level table, but just because it is a table that you put on a pedestal doesn't meant that everyone should do the same. Their are many tables that out perform the Technics 1200 and many audiophiles prefer those tables. Consider the fact that is an abundance of aftermarket companies selling parts to upgrade the 1200, if the turntable was so rock solid their wouldn't be so many upgrades to deal with its shortcomings.
 
I could also point out, Technics offered other turntables geared to a more serious music listener, one in particular was the SP10 MkII or MkIII. They wouldn't have felt a need to produce a better table if the 1200 was such a potent audiophile level table.
 
Ken Kessler, who has had a very long career as a subjective and high end reviewer praised the SL 1200 -granted, not when the table came out (he may not have even started reviewing then), but later in its production run.
Reviewers are all suspects! I almost purchased Ken Kessler's TD-124 Mk-II last December. It was auctioned on eBay and advertised as such. I lost that British auction in the end but I preliminarily dug up info about Kessler and the only reference to his own private gear were pictures of a Garrard 301 and a Thorens TD-124. Not even a Technics SP-10.
 
Just imagine walking into a high end audio store and buying a high end audiophile turntable, and then picking it up and just throwing it into the back of a van to take it home - SHOCK HORROR. The shop staff would look at you in total amazement and then almost bar you from their shop full of beautiful delicate finely tuned machines
Well you can do that with a SL-1200. It's built like a tank and it still produces a decent quality sound.
And that's why the audiophiles hate it.
 
but why cannot it be considered a high end musical table if the right cartridge is used?
Because it's not, sorry it just isn't what you want it to be other than to yourself and some others. One would need a references point to get it, and have more knowledge as to what is possible. If this is the best table you ever had, well then you just don't know of the possibilities and what is better, the SL-1200 is your reference point, that's all.

Perhaps you have an inferiority complex, in that you expect some audiophile to praise a certain table that you like? Audiophiles are not one group of people that fit in one small box that you can group them all together. The turntable you want praised is often mentioned as a good mid level table, but just because it is a table that you put on a pedestal doesn't meant that everyone should do the same. Their are many tables that out perform the Technics 1200 and many audiophiles prefer those tables. Consider the fact that is an abundance of aftermarket companies selling parts to upgrade the 1200, if the turntable was so rock solid their wouldn't be so many upgrades to deal with its shortcomings.

Very well said Ken
 
If the arm is its weakness why not change it.
Some people do. I've considered doing so with my SL-1200Mk1, but have yet to feel the need. The main problem I've had with the Mk1-style arm (also used on the SL-1100A, but the SL-1300 introduced the style of Technics arm used from then on) is that it doesn't play nice with my Shure V-15 III and the JICO SAS stylus I've equipped it with. However, the Ortofon Arkiv (bought on clearance from Guitar Center a few years back) I've equipped it with performs nicely, even if it tracks heavier than I'd prefer (2-3g).
-Adam
 
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