Wood Glue as Vinyl Cleaner

Discussion in 'Turntables' started by Mopic5, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. outlawmws

    outlawmws On the Run

    Messages:
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    Did you use the bad glue or the Lepage? If you are going to experiment, and it goes bad, I'd be using the successful stuff to try to recover...
     

     

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  2. rulerboyz

    rulerboyz AK Member

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    2,458
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    The Lepage's Carpenter's glue was the one that worked well for me. I used different kinds because I ran out of that one. I asked someone to pick me up some woodglue and they brought me back the wrong stuff. That's the only reason I used it, not because I was trying to experiment.
     
  3. Grainger49

    Grainger49 Old Fart

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    This could be what I posted. Poly Vinyl Alcohol, also abbreviated as PVA. It takes over 8 hours to dry, depending on your humidity and temperature.

    Like I said, Old Colony Sound is selling the cleaning kit again. But my PVA is sold in 50 pound sacks that look like a bag of fertilizer (size, not content).
     
  4. REDone

    REDone Super Member

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    1,310
    Reporting back that result did not get rid of the cracles & surface noise that I hoped for
    The LP looks cleaner though & I can now play it, whereas before I wouldn't.
    So it is useful but is not the miracle I was hoping for
     
  5. kstaskiewicz

    kstaskiewicz Well-Known Member

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    554
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I have bought some Columbia re-issues that were sealed and pressed within the last few years, yet turned out to be warped, scratched and crackly.
    Under the bright sunlight you could actually see smudges of dust particles embedded in vinyl - recycled vinyl evidently... It looked kind of like they mixed it right in to the hot melt, stirred it a little and then pressed away.

    One of the albums had couple of chunks of paper in it and a piece of dirt/sand/whatever that was big enough to make a lump on both sides of the record.

    Those were the last brand new LPs I bought. I'm sticking to second-hand now. If you get a lemon that cannot be cleaned - it's still 50 cents vs. $20.00 dollars.

    So I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes records cannot be brought back to perfection, as they were never perfect to begin with.
    Kris
     
  6. REDone

    REDone Super Member

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    1,310
    This was Deutsche Grammaphon Concierto De Aranjuez .. but I take your point
     

     

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  7. Dynacophil

    Dynacophil I ain't Phil, I'm 'phile

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    Interesting Aspect... I s dried gelatine rubberlike..?

    Helge
     
  8. The Reverend

    The Reverend Just terrible.

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    Location:
    Davis, CA
    I'm a believer!

    Well, I finally decided to try this. I initially cleaned side 1 of Ravi Shankar's Portrait of a Genius. Wow! That record was totally unlistenable beforehand, and this simple method truly refreshed it to a near brand new quality. I went ahead and did the second side of that, along with 5 other noisy records. All showed significant improvement. Even my copy of Tangerine Dream's Phaedra purchased from E-Bay in "mint" condition went from being unlistenable due to the crackle to nearly dead silent. I went back to the hardware store today and bought more of the glue for more cleaning. I am very impressed!
     
  9. Divotdog

    Divotdog "I can fix it Grampa"

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    Tried this myself today, I had an old Realistic test record that looked great but was unusable due to the pops and clicks on it, It is now dead silent. I am going to try a couple of others this evening. :thmbsp:
     
  10. braxus

    braxus FeCr Type III

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    1,593
    Wow interesting thread. I have a few records that have so much guck in the grooves, they don't play well at all. This might be what I need.
     
  11. persil

    persil Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    624
    Location:
    London UK
    Ive got a Keith Monks professional cleaning machine, probably the best ever made for commercial use. I have a particular record that is ultra rare and was ultra dirty! I cleaned it 5 times on the machine and thought the improvement was good. I then gave it a coat of PVA wood glue,let it dry and peeled it off, I then cleaned it again on the machine. Amazing! No surface noise! No clicks and pops! ,probably as good as it gets! I will certainly use this method again - if the record warrants it that is! It IS messy! It IS slow! but it works so bloody well!
     

     

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  12. Mopic5

    Mopic5 Super Member

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    Looking at Persil's one-two punch, a little closer maybe it's time to begin to draw some conclusions. We'll, I'll go out on the limb, anyway, for the sake of discussion.

    In comparing the two general methods of cleaning: 1-brushing in wet solution and 2- the wood glue lift, I think it may be important to define the nature of dirt on LPs into two general categories: a) air-born particles (dust) and b- "true grit".

    Anything that can be floated out of the grooves with a cleaning solution consisting of distilled water, a sulfucant (Dawn)and foto-flow (I'm in the "stay away from alcohol" camp), should clean up nicely with this method.

    Dirt on the record that cannot be floated with a solution, either because of its relative dense weight or because it's adhering to the surface because of a different kind of glue (Coca-Cola or silverfish dung), I'm calling grit.

    Now, to go a little further on out on the limb... If you've got a record with grit on it, it seems to me that brushing in wet solution might actually be damaging to the grooves as a first step.

    Think of what valve grinding compound is and does. It's basically grit in solution and grinds metal.

    So, for the sake of arguement, I'd suggest that if you've got a grungy candidate for restoration, use the wood glue first. Then protect the record and keep it high and dry, so that wet cleaning will be the only method you'll ever need after that.

    Make sense?

    Mario
     
  13. davesnewTT

    davesnewTT justdavesTT

    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    Nijmegen, Holland
    You're making sense but by that logic just the wood glue should do, since it also picks up floating particles. I'm still relatively new to vinyl, not to change the subject but it would seem to me that any form of wet cleaning without a RCM is imperfect since it's impossible to adequately remove the cleaning solution. At microgroove scale even water is highly viscous. Having said that, I've never used one :scratch2:
    Anyway, tried the wood glue this weekend. Already ruined one label, but good results otherwise. Also noticed that like the Discofilm, the wood glue can be recycled, or in the case of the brand I'm using, thinned down in advance, which speeds up the drying strangely enough...
     
  14. Dynacophil

    Dynacophil I ain't Phil, I'm 'phile

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    Location:
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    Hi

    my System w/ discofilm now is: have always two sets, one freshly recycled, what takes a few days of frequently care until its fluid again, and the dirt it caught sunk to the bottom. When the dirt sunk, and it is fluid, fill up to the other glass i use it off. leave the dirt on bottom in and dump the rest, then start recicling the films collected until then. i now always have stuff to use and stuff i recycle. it gets darker and little less flexible with every use, but the old suff mixed with the new stuff made it very good again. i guess with the little loss i have i wil clean another 150 sides before i will buy thje 3rd bottle to refresh the then old stuff. thats still less then 50 $ for 360 Records i will have cleaned with the 2 first bottles. plus the Auquadest...

    Only be sure get the Set with posts and Applicator. I have four posts now, what makes it easy to do four records per day/overnight.

    Helge
     
  15. Mopic5

    Mopic5 Super Member

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    Hi Dave,

    Yeh, but I think there’s an “ease of use” and expense elements here too. While getting a simple, “one piece peel” comes with practice, it’s still a production in the best of circumstances - more restoration than cleaning. It seems to me that once you’ve removed virtually all unfloatable grit and take care in the handling and storage of the LP, glue shouldn’t be needed again.

    As I understand the agents in the wet-wash solution, the use of either alcohol or foto-flow is the penetrator – changing the viscous water based solution so that it gets deep into the grooves. The sulfactant (Dawn) is the floater.

    As for getting residuals out, a lot of effort goes into the vacuuming end of it - but there's also emphasis on using non-residue evaporants - distilled water, alcohol or Foto-Flo. Though, residual sulfactant ... might be an issue.

    The question I’m wresting with now is whether after the wood glue peel, are aggressive brushing methods, either manual or in RCM design needed? If you take as given that these methods and machines were designed to attack and remove (with varying success) non-airborne contaminants (grit), something now that the glue fully removes… can brushing become less aggressive – more of an agitator to float, than a scrubber?

    My own DIY record-cleaning machine sits partially assembled on my workbench while I rethink its whole design.

    So Dave, what’s the new TT?

    - Mopic5
     
  16. Turbokeu

    Turbokeu Member

    Messages:
    55
    Location:
    Dilbeek - Belgium
    As much i'd liked to try this white glue trick on my dirty records, as reluctant I am for messy situations/damaged records because of using the wrong brand/type of glue...

    @Dynacophil: Are you really happy with the results of the Discofilm kit?
    I can buy Discofim kits on ebay Germany for about 22 to 27 Euro (30 to $36) + shipping costs.

    Thanks,

    CD :)
     

     

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  17. Dynacophil

    Dynacophil I ain't Phil, I'm 'phile

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    Hi, thats not really cheap. I pay 19,90€ for the naked bottle and ~25 for the Starter set w/applicator and bases. It starts making fun having min. four bases :) so, i would buy two starter sets, use on bottle till its finished, recycle the collected films while starting using the second bottle. when u will have finished with this, the recycling process will be finished... Don't ever try w/o applicator, it will end in disaster....

    it is expensive in single use. First thing i do is: thin it. I add 100ml dest. water. no more, this is too thin :)

    Recycling is easy. fill the collected films in a glass, the needed amount warm dest. water on top, wait a while, agitate, wait a while, agitate, putting the glass in to a pot of hot water helps, microwave is too much i found. It may take two or three days until its solubed complete.

    i start recycling when i work with the second bottle, so when i'm fished with this, the new setup is ready to work with.

    i am very satisfied with the result, only Disadvantage is the time it needs to dry. I always try to do the second sides at eve that i have a staple of 4 complete dried Records next day. The Application needs a little practice, but its easy to learn...


    Helge
     
  18. davesnewTT

    davesnewTT justdavesTT

    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    Nijmegen, Holland
    @Mopic5: Should change my name really, it's not gonna be new for much longer:D . Anyway, a Pioneer PL520, nice looking table and as far as I'm told a decent performer.
    Like I said, I'm fairly new to vinyl, tried the wood glue, tried a DIY wet clean (3 pts demi water, 1 pt alcohol and a drop of detergent), but I have the impression I'm still picking up more distortion and background noise than I should. Some crappy and abused all-in-one system with a neolithic stylus seems to play quieter!? Mind you, virtually all my vinyl is secondhand, and lots of old jazz recordings. Maybe a spherical needle instead of an elliptical one might be better on worn records?
     
  19. Mopic5

    Mopic5 Super Member

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    1,132
    Location:
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    Hi Turbokea,

    In the UK, a recommended brand of wood glue is Unibond, while on the Continent one may want to search out Pattex by Henkel.

    Some of the confusion surrounding what’s called wood glue comes down to color. By and large, wood glues in N.A. are yellow, while in Europe they’re white – except for very expensive US imports like Tite-Bond. Adding further to this is the marketing perception in N.A. that white glue is not up to the same grade/task as wood glue. Our #1 brand of white glue in the U.S. is Elmer’s and it’s marketed as a “school project” type of glue.

    Since PVA glues are not irritants or highly toxic, ingredient-listing regulations are pretty lightweight, at best. But on the US side, there are new workplace rules that manufacturers must provide active and inert ingredients upon request via MSDS (Material Safety Data Safety) forms. Anybody wanting to spend the time researching all this need only write the manufacturers for this info. Who knows, maybe Tite-Bond is basically Elmer’s with yellow coloring added.

    A far easier way to go about it is to buy a few small wood glue samples, grab a few expendable LPs and see which works best with your application methods and working environment.

    After months of peeling with wood glue, I’m convinced that it will silence a noisy LP better than the best that VPI has to offer, and I suspect better than any wet wash method, including Keith Monk’s RCM.

    Of course, records that have suffered groove wall, or other alignment damage are not going have noise “lifted” out by wood glue. Prior reports of failures using this method have to be weighed as to whether it was a failure in the product, application process or prior unfixable damage.

    Mopic5
     
  20. Turbokeu

    Turbokeu Member

    Messages:
    55
    Location:
    Dilbeek - Belgium
    Helge, Thanks for the info.
    The 22 to 27 Euro price that I mentionned is for the Discofilm starter set with applicator and bases.

    CD :)
     

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