Hey! I'm half way there. The first part was "relatively" easy. It's the second part I'm have trouble with.
WSJ Article on Vintage Audio.
- Thread starter 62caddy
- Start date
Blue Shadow
Waiting for Vintage Gear from this century
The goal is to have the last check you write bounce. Old, rich spent it all, gone.
Interesting that the brands listed as we buy have some very old brands that are rarely discussed here and the better gear that gets trashed for being in business today and being well outside the budgets mentioned here. There are a number of the brands that have their own forum on AK that are Not being purchased based on the link to one of the dealers. We can revel in the sonic enjoyment of the Pio/Mar/Suis and not worry about them getting bought up and shipped out by these folks. We don't need their help to get the prices up there.
PAGS
Super Member
I'm into low budget weddings. Mine was under $1k. But that was over 30 years ago.
Encouraging my daughter to elope. She's so cheap (makes me look a spendthrift), she might.
Encouraging my daughter to elope. She's so cheap (makes me look a spendthrift), she might.
Pay her to elope. It’s cheaper than the wedding.
"How many joules do you need to run a modern high quality stand-mount speaker (min. impedance of 4.6 ohms & 88 dB sensitivity- recommended 50- 120W) in a 20' x 12' x 8' room?"
is a different question than:
"but how to I determine how many joules an amp has?"
The response you quoted was to the former.
I sit corrected. Looks like C701-C708 are the main supply caps. That makes more sense with 80,000 uF @ 68V for 185 joules. That is similar in energy/watt to an '81 Threshold Stasis 3 amp I once owned. The power supply in the current Pass Labs evolution of that amp is far larger (~300 joules).
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OK, I double checked and you're definitely looking in the wrong place. I used the calculator below and confirmed with a reliable source that is very familiar with the X1, it has ~190 joules for the amp section alone.
https://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.php
To which I acknowledged in post #65. I had the rail voltage correct, but was looking at different caps. C701-C708 are 10,000 uF each. Here's the output section:
Looks like 68V rails to me. 68*68*.08/2=185.
Yes, the actual calculated value (184.96) is approximately 190.
Ha ha, it looks like we were both typing at the same time!
Yet if we use the typical inflation calculators (which I believe are overstated for consumer audio goods) the AU-X1 would "retail" for a little over $4K today, yet the current Pass Labs baby 60W integrated amp, the INT-60 retails for $9K. At less than half the power rating at both 4 & 8 ohm, how many more joules does the INT-60 have over the X1 for the extra $5K?
As far as I'm concerned 190 joules is more than enough energy reserves to properly drive my 805D2 especially since my REL S/2 sub has it's own amp.
Is having more energy reserves good? YES.
Is there such a thing as overkill? YES.
Do I need more for my application? NO.
I have had a slew of reasonably priced (<$6K) modern amps in here and none of them have justified me keeping them over the X1. Not one of them has been quieter (not one of them has been as noiseless as the X1, not one) or more resolving and involving than the X1 amp section using the passive volume control setting.
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Actually, Nelson Pass chooses to run the rail voltages for the true class A designs at a lower voltage with actually fewer (~150) joules. The nearly identical except-for-bias-setting INT-250 class AB sibling has slightly over 300.
My observations regarding the sweeping declarations in the WSJ article were generation, not budget restricted. The biggest gains have actually been with preamp stages where balanced operation has really improved lowering the detail floor especially with high resolution digital sources. My current Audio Research SP20 is substantially quieter than the SP-9 MKIII it replaced.
Of course there is better today but not necessarily at the equivalent price points (or even double). 30-40 years ago (price adjusted) who would have fathomed what some audio gear could fetch today? The price certain consumers are willing to pay opens up a whole world of possibilities and excesses.
Pre-amp gains (no pun intended) don't really matter to me. I bypass the pre-amp anyway- so with a passive volume control it's a pure wire with gain. It doesn't get much better than that in my application with my speakers.
Class A? that reminds me, don't even get me started on the built in MM & MC phono stages of the X1. Restore them with new components, use it with your best vinyl rig and go ahead and tell me what the equivalent will set you back today.
Point is that yes, while there may be better today- it comes at a steep premium. Choose your vintage gear wisely and you will be rewarded.
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Which was entirely the thrust of my first post.
That's what I once thought. Ran a passive for about ten years. The best actives (not necessarily inexpensive ones) outperform passives in the PPP end of the dynamic spectrum in my experience.
Not necessarily. There are brands like Parasound designed by John Curl that make exceptional gear for less than the top shelf variety. Try out a Halo HINT6 in your system.
Glad you like it but it's not for me, the added gain is "fun" and "dynamic" in some cases but it just doesn't sound real to me overall.
Been there, done that. You need to listen to a restored AU-X1 in jump mode driving modern high-end speakers within its capabilities. Then we can talk.
Thanks for the "joules" conversation- it was interesting. I've always looked at the filter capacitance of the main amp board as an important factor but now I'll pay closer attention to the specified voltage of the filter caps themselves (as well as if they are parallel or serial).
Anyone interested in calculating joules can use this:
https://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.php
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For some reason, folks associate dynamics only at the FFF end of the scale. My reference is live, unamplified music where the contrast from the pianissimo to the forte sounds entirely real to me. Like hearing a tasty program of Star Wars content at the symphony last night seated in row H. Simply incredible. Tracks like Rey's Theme explore dynamic expression both ends ending in a whisper. That's where the passion of music lies for me. Try the raise-the-hair-on-your-arms contrast found in He's Here for Us from the Rogue One soundtrack as I played on the stats in Glenn's speaker video post.
I confess that devices that purport to *increase* dynamic range like DBX models sound artificial to these ears. You cannot truly restore what was never captured.
Yes. Voltage is the exponential significant factor. My VTL monoblocks have but 1650 uF of capacitance - but running 550V rails for 250 joules each.
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restorer-john
Addicted Member
E-Stat, can I please come to your Joule Party? Please? It'd be so much fun...
I've got 440 spare Joules sitting on my bench- enough for admission?
Me too- that's when you know.
Last year we went to a small club in New Orleans and my wife leaned over and said, "It sounds like we're sitting at home". I smiled like the Cheshire Cat.
Absolutely! Just don't run rails at 100% of rated cap voltage.I've got 440 spare Joules sitting on my bench- enough for admission?
Cool. How can that natural contrast ever not sound "real overall"?
I enjoy hearing wifey play her baby grand for regular doses of unamplified music.
restorer-john
Addicted Member
You got rails at your Joule Party? You don't want to see one of these babies go off- it'd blow a hole right through a wall.
restorer-john
Addicted Member
This is the first Pass Labs amplifier I really like the look of. At $9k it should give some of the equally overpriced integrated amplifiers from some of our Japanese friends a decent run for their money.
The only thing I don't like is the blue illumination, but that's just me- I'm sick of blue LEDs.
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