XR290 Listening Impressions

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The Raw curve is basically very good for a speaker in a room. The Room Perfect curves, though better still aren't up to professional standards. I'd be pulling my hair with that boost at 40 hz. With a Stereo 4 0r 5 band Klarke Techniq or two mono UREI, parametric Eq, you really could get a much better curve. Like I say I'm flat with in a 3db envelope between 25 and 4000 hz. I maintain a little wider envelop with a 3 db centered down slop to 10,000. Then I roll off another 3 or 4 db to 18 KHZ. Current systems are controlled with digital processors to with in 1 db. Personally I don't like automated systems. Preferring to choose the curve to meet the room and the loudspeaker system selected. With some speakers like Bozaks that tend to be a little warm, you want a flat woofer response. While with speakers like the ML and XR series, 1 or 2 db boost might be more to my liking. The current woofers using ports, I would have to experiment. Basically the 290's are dry and I would prefer that 2 db boost to be below 70 hz. Altecs and Horn loaded JBL and Klipsch Heritage speakers like my Bozaks need to e kept almost perfectly flat below 250 hz. Because of using horns I would put a 2 db dip in the range they cover and then start the 2.5 to 5 Khz roll off depending on your listening choices.

The one thing we haven't talked about is the room. The environment your speakers are located in. How much of the sound you are hearing initially is the first wave front arrival and how much is the reverberation of the room. Line arrays, especially the 290, should present a very accurate first wave to just above the mid/woofer crossover frequency. And the frequencies below are so influenced by the room taking your measurements at the sweet spot are OK. But the ear is really influenced by early arrivals as frequency rises so as to be able to discern directionality, or where the source comes from. So I check the out put of the speaker at 4ft, too. Just making sure the early sound from the speaker is correct, too. If it is not I tend to message the response to get an average of the two. And this is what Room perfect does in a more sophisticated way, But I want to be in control of the averaging. A db or two in the 250 to 5000 hz spectrum can really change the over all sound of a recording. Though I am not a trained professional musician I can appreciate what they listen for and most of the time its different from what the rest of us do. They want that first wave to be very accurate and they can listen through the sound of the reflections. I am easily influenced, and is why I don't like point source speakers. I want horns and prefer line arrays. That said you can have to much of a good thing. Big highly directional horns, from EV, Altec, or JBL aren't my thing either.

The advantage of having a really controlled frequency speaker response is it not only to control the accuracy of the spectral response but with speaker designs that were made with great care the corrections also reduce the timing errors. Which is something Room perfect is suppose to do, too. and is very important, in fact, fundamental in getting an accurate mental picture of the performance.

That said, As Don Davis , Altec and Syn-Aud-Con, use to say if you can't get the timing issues right its better for the listening experience to be way off with your driver Alignment. Thats why people have accepted Klipsch Heritage speakers. The fact their drivers are not coherent has the same effect as room properties reflections being different at different frequency bands. And remember like Bose, Paul was trying to produce an illusion of a real performance. Not the accuracy of the illusion the recording engineer and producer heard in the studio.

Remember folks this is all smoke and mirrors, so don't think the image we try to create in our homes is to be Gospel. Its not, we are trying to accurately reproduce an illusion.

Of course there are exceptions. Folks who make Stereo recordings with a single stereo mic located to capture the performers first with a hint of room thrown in can be just down right scary when reproduced with line array speakers in a soft room. No illusion there folks. I have made any number of those recordings. Norad band, US Navy Band, Barbershop finals, and my favorite Steam engine recordings. Pipe organ, Dixie land Band, Brass and string quartets and Quintets, Pianos and harps were on the list, too. UP 8444, SP 4449 flying buy at 75 mph at 110 db is a real thrill. And there is absolutely no way of producing the roar of 8444 as she glides by a crossing a 10 mph try ing to accelerate under full throttle while you stand at almost arms reach. There just aren't that many woofers in one room to shake the earth/your room and body. My favorite engines are 611 and 1218 of the N&W. So smooth, perfect mechanical machines with out a stray sound out of place. No clinks, Clanks, bangs, knocks to distract from that wonder full sound of a big steam boiler producing that raw energy to be applied to cylinders driving pistons connected to rods turning massive 80" discs of steel to propel almost a million pounds of machine down the rails. When I play those sounds on my system and it brings back those memories, what more could you ask a system to do?

It appears I can use the Lyngdorf DSP tool to address room notches versus MQ-107. A bit of new territory for me. Looks like the MEN220 tool. Does the MX-151 come with this software pack? i also have a voicing tool with twelve canned curves.

If I smooth out the raw response I could then run RoomPerfect again. It does let you addtress L&R separate.
 

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Guys, you do realize that this knowledge isn't being passed down among professionals. It's press a button and go. Before long, it will be but a distant memory.
Somewhere I read of a speaker system works as its own microphone. It reads room redponse and adjusts it equalization from its room position.

Somebody will need knowledge to design tools with the algorithms. That will be a small group
 
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As I remember the thing owners were suppose to like about Room Perfect was even with the correction the over all personality of the speaker was to remain in place. And from looking at the curves I guess it works as advertised. And yes a MQ 107 would correct your hump first and then carefully looking at the direct wave of the speaker initial arrival time response for a minor tune up might be the way to go for each speaker.

When learning to voice systems with TEF analyzers for the first time. It was always the same old argument. The designers and techs with a strong musical back ground wanted one presentation. Where sound designers would prefer another.

And as you can only voice the direct sound of the speaker, you can't manipulate it electronically once the wave leaves the cone, the idea of Room Perfect rubbed me the wrong way when I first heard about. But I was thinking about large space acoustics. And though I was involved with Live end Dead end sound design for recording studios what I learned does apply to home spaces if modified a bit especially if using line arrays.

And considering the compromized listening space lay out it further proves Room perfect performs well, if not perfectly. It is better than the raw room performance.
 
As I remember the thing owners were suppose to like about Room Perfect was even with the correction the over all personality of the speaker was to remain in place. And from looking at the curves I guess it works as advertised. And yes a MQ 107 would correct your hump first and then carefully looking at the direct wave of the speaker initial arrival time response for a minor tune up might be the way to go for each speaker.

When learning to voice systems with TEF analyzers for the first time. It was always the same old argument. The designers and techs with a strong musical back ground wanted one presentation. Where sound designers would prefer another.

And as you can only voice the direct sound of the speaker, you can't manipulate it electronically once the wave leaves the cone, the idea of Room Perfect rubbed me the wrong way when I first heard about. But I was thinking about large space acoustics. And though I was involved with Live end Dead end sound design for recording studios what I learned does apply to home spaces if modified a bit especially if using line arrays.

And considering the compromized listening space lay out it further proves Room perfect performs well, if not perfectly. It is better than the raw room performance.

Thanks for the advice. I will run some RTA curves at 4 feet and at sweet spot and attach plots. On the fence of using MQ107 versus the the Lyngdorf DSP software. I will have to go back to unbalanced RCA between my DAC and MC1000 amps to loop it in and accept the poorer SNR of the MQ107 compared to staying digital until signal dumps into Amps from DAC at 115 dB now. It is dead quiet even having your ear directly on one of the 48 tweeters. mQ107 is only 90dB.

Any MEN220 users familiar with the voicing tools as Parametric that can offer advice? The software appears identical. The live capability and ability to watch result real time on RTA sounds easy enough and I already am all digital signal even volume done in the TDAI2200 digitally.
 
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Guys, you do realize that this knowledge isn't being passed down among professionals. It's press a button and go. Before long, it will be but a distant memory.

This has been said by generations for generations.

The home audio tradition has always had a rebellious streak, an self described experts golden ears have always held to much sway over actual measurements.

I would really be interested in seeing the response curves of each speaker individually. I would expect the 40 hz bass boost is being created exclusively by the LH speaker coupling with the corner, the RH might even have a suckout due to the large opening to it's right.
 
This has been said by generations for generations.

The home audio tradition has always had a rebellious streak, an self described experts golden ears have always held to much sway over actual measurements.

I would really be interested in seeing the response curves of each speaker individually. I would expect the 40 hz bass boost is being created exclusively by the LH speaker coupling with the corner, the RH might even have a suckout due to the large opening to it's right.
This damn music these kids now-a-days listen to! Classics they became all . . . Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, The Who, etc . . . before that . . . Elvis, Johnny Cash, Jerry Lee Lewis . . .

This stuff is different Chris. Kind of like trying to find a guy that can set your timing and tune your carb for best performance, drivability, and fuel economy. They're dying off.
 
I have hope that there are those out there who will be curious.......that is where it starts.

I was given the chance to learn how to use a Sun distributor dynometer because I was curious (didn't hurt that my father was buying a whole new Sun emission tuneup center).

I am sure that Dirk Roos took the time to teach me about turntable calibration because I was curious and wanted to learn how to do it right.

The list could go on and on but it is up to us to share our fulfilled curiosity with newcomers new budding curiosity.

It started for me when a older neighbor made the time to put up with my curiosity about the ping pong ball or dragster going from speaker to speaker.

Are you saying young people are not curious anymore, or has the industry shut them out with excessiveness?
 
Opps I forgot the MEN 220 has the ability to have 5 or 6 graphic parametric filters built in to the programming. I wonder if this capability is there for the 151. If thats the case we have stumbled into another magnitude perfection capability with the 151.

To be 40 years younger and imersed in Audio again daily would be so much fun at work with todays technology. Systems can so much better today than in the past. With the right soft ware, computer, calibrated mics, and a MEN 220 or 150/151 perfection is right around the corner. XR 290's are the most important of the building blocks.

I wouldn't hesitate to use XRT 28's or 30's or Rogers IDS either. I might even consider JBL's 67000 or with careful installation Magneplanars or big Dunlavys. .
 
Opps I forgot the MEN 220 has the ability to have 5 or 6 graphic parametric filters built in to the programming. I wonder if this capability is there for the 151. If thats the case we have stumbled into another magnitude perfection capability with the 151.

To be 40 years younger and imersed in Audio again daily would be so much fun at work with todays technology. Systems can so much better today than in the past. With the right soft ware, computer, calibrated mics, and a MEN 220 or 150/151 perfection is right around the corner. XR 290's are the most important of the building blocks.

I wouldn't hesitate to use XRT 28's or 30's or Rogers IDS either. I might even consider JBL's 67000 or with careful installation Magneplanars.
Before I build custom parametric filters with the Lyngdorf Room Perfect I am hoing to try a theory. I am going to look at Left and Right RTA responses at sweet spot and four foot marks. Then attack problem frequencies by going with more room position measurements at the half wavelength distance from the speaker to the room and with Microphone pointing at the wall for bass bloom near sweetspot.

Then take measurements to gain 100 percent room knowledge after filter recalculation.

Then take and post RTA plots.
 
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Twii, do you think the home audio golden ear gurus would accept the disciplined approach like we were taught at Syn-Aud-Con or would they rebel even though it would greatly affect their wallet.

When I spent a week at Crown doing IQ training an interesting common issue reared it's head. Some of us management types spent a bit of time with the instructors discussing how to deal with the younger trainees over fascination with the computer tech and not getting the firm basics done first. Way to much time was wasted building computer solutions that could not even be imputed into the hardware for example.
 
Lets see I went to Syn aud con 3 times. 75or6, 79, and 80's. I also attended Altec and Ev seminars in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. I went to TEF school when we bought our 12S just before the 20 was introduced. Fortunately it wasn't like attending CAD school where the computer whizz kids would use their own apps or other programs in the 90's that were superior to what the architects used for the design and what the college instructors were using. They could get the work done in half the time of the rest. I had taken drafting in HS and College and attended supplemental classes in the 60's and 70's. That was the only thing that allowed me to keep up with the computer nerds, because I already new what the end result should be. If I had been using vellum and K&E ink pens I could have lettered the drawings in half the time. One time I took one of my home work drawings printed it out, lettered it by hand, and rescanned the drawing and printed it out. The professor new what I did and just smiled and gave me an A. But said the next time I would get a Zero. He said it was fun to see an "ole guy" out fox the kids. That was 25 to 30 years ago. I doubt kids today would know how a drafting machine and triangles are used.

It was fun going to TEF school . We got to tour Crown and see one of the early MRI machines that used Crown M600 amps. Of course Crown was still owned by the Church and we got to see the radio Transmitters they built for Church organizations through out the world. We met the two long hair dudes that designed all the soft ware for the TEF analyzers. Talk about a weird pair of nerds. As far as I was concerned they couldn't speak English.

As for the disciplined approach all I can say is I know it works under very adverse acoustic conditions. Of course some of the tricks Don and Carolyn taught were just as helpful as the design theory. When hanging horns shine a bright light down the throat, . later a laser beam. in a darkened room to get perfect coverage orientataion. Or using an out door 290 driver with MR 42 horns crossed at 300 hz for utmost clarity in reverberant spaces indoors. And never use DH1a or DH2 drivers with EV Horns. Either use Altec with a throat adapter. or JBL as the EV Drivers had serious phase anomalies in the 2 to 4 kHz spectrum. Do you know why horn geeks so love the A7 woofer box, 511B combination? The Q of the Box and the 511 horn were the same at the 500 HZ crossover frequency and the point of origins could be lined up easily for proper summing when bi-amped using Butter worth filters.

Did you know Don used Walsh OHM speakers for his high fi. They were totally omni directional. Strange for some one who believed in horns for best intelligibility.

The most amazing thing I heard was his Bessel array using 25 four inch Davis speakers in a square grid pattern. It would blow away an Ev portable speaker using a horn and a 12 inch woofer.

Learning how to use supplemental speakers with time delays was very valuable in my career.

Did you go to school at the ranch in Indiana?
 
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So you went to the "farm" for syn-aud-com? I did it as part of training at EAW.

TEF training was done in Elkhart at Crown's technical services managers church.

During our Crown IQ training hands on qualifaction test, myself and the owner of a system contacting business in Buffalo let our young computer savvy techs go first in the timed pass fail test. Now when I was in college I learned how to program BASIC, FORTRAN and COBAL but had little interest in the skill set to create all these elaborate computer based visual control panels. The kids loved it.

Well his tech took 56 minutes, mine 58 minutes to just pass the 60 minute timed test.

Well needless to say he and I were sweating bullets knowing we would never ever live down the embarrassing failure let alone the wasted cost of failing to gain this certification.

He was done in 11 minutes, it took me 12. The kids made beautiful graphics with buttons and sliders and all those lovely visuals but did not bother to make sure things were plugged into the correct interfaces or even had power.

The instructors sat us managers down together to emphasize this ongoing problem, ultimately it was our job as managers to press our young charges to look for and solve the basics before we turned them loose on the computer based tools.

Analog frequency response testing is old and well established, computer based gated testing allows us to get deeper inside what is causing the anomalies that the analog testing hints at.

Now I am going to get back in my rocking chair and yell at the neighbor kids.......
 
Here are close up versus sweet spot RTA plots.

Rt speaker RP in bypass at 4 feet
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Rt Speaker Bypass at Sweet Spot
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Rt Speaker Roomperfect Global at 4 feet
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Rt speaker Room Perfect Global Sweet Spot
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Rt Speaker 4 feet Focus
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Right Speaker At Sweet Spot Focus Mode
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Looking forward to seeing the left.

6 dB+ first impression drop in output confirms distance from speakers, the greater, looks like 12 dB above 125 Hz, is interesting. I am guessing the suckout at 1.5k is crossover/ time/ phase related at 4 ft.
 
Now for left speaker

Left Bypass 4 feet
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Left Bypass Sweetspot

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Left RP Global 4 feet
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Left Room Perfect Global Sweet Spot
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Left RoomPerfect Focus at 4 feet
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Left Room Perfect Focus at Sweetspot
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Given the above plots it is obvious Room Perfect Filters are using room effects to get desired result at sweet spot. Sure enough the 40 Hz roomm hump is being caused because of half mode right at Focus listening position. The tape measure did not lie either. The obvious fix is to go to 100 percent room knowledge. I took two measurements at 40 Hz half mode and one at the 1/4 mode to get 100 percent. Room correction went to 57 percent. same amount the XRT20 and XR19 stack took.

Here are the final RTA plots. I was successful eliminating the 40 Hz hump.
Here is no room correction Sweet Spot
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Here Room Perfect Global from SweetSpot

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Here is Room Perfect Focus One with 100 percent room Knowledge
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Here are Full Octave Plots

Bypass

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Global Room Perfect
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Focus One Room Perfect

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I immediately noticed even more solid bass 40 Hz hump no more. Plus the best curves yet. it also goes to prove. You can employ old school approaches to further dial in room perfect. Use RTA plots and room knowledge mike placements to further fix issues. had I not used the RTA I would have never known
 
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The Rt and Lt bypass at sweet spot seem to be identical. Real world 1/3 octave pink noise analysis chances of such symmetry would be astronomical......
 
That makes more sense. The lh has obvious corner gain in the bass, looks to be about 5 dB. Seems to extend all the way thru the mid bass up to the low midrange.

Did you have one of those profs that would make you correct the multiple guess and T and F questions on tests also?
 
The true test a listen of the flatter curve at 100 percent room knowledge was not to my liking. Maybe because highs were not rolled off enough like Twiiii likes to do. The extreme detail turned to listening fatigue. which resulted to going to either the loudness curve or soft voicing curves in the Lyngdorf versus Neutral . It appears 12 room measurements is too much. I will redo at 9 measurements with mike placements at wall distances that best addess room modes in my next strategy and only 99 percent room knowledge. First I may pull the left speaker a bit from the corner to see if it reduces corner gain in bypass first. Any other suggestions are appreciated.

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