Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Zilch, the Low pass is 1.5 Mh and 11.5 Microfarads, while the High pass is 4 Microfarads and .51 Mh. You may want to try duplicating my results.
I'll do that Jack. What you have looks listenable now. :yes:

JBL took the same approach even further to do the HF compensation as well in L200T3:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical Sheet/L200t3 ts.pdf

I have some of those crossovers I built here, and will try that, too. Butt-cheek compensation doesn't typically work well with PT Waveguides, but it'll only take a couple of minutes to try, since I already have them.

Not bad for beginners, huh?
Durn good, I would say. Look also to the Pi Speakers compensation filter:

http://www.pispeakers.com/Speaker_Crossover.doc

The 2 kHz bump would be dealt with separately.

[I'm making a list.... :p: ]
 
Although, i'd prefer to use some of the 18sound lenses. :)
Been reading Geddes have you? ;)

Just ordered a pair of XT1086s, and already have XT120s installed in AR4x here.

I'm presently running on GPA Altec MR931, the asymmetric horn used in Model 14, and will report on that next week.

For now, though, we're concentrating on making the $9.90 JBL PT waveguide work its best. These other options are more expensive, some, like XT1086 @ $88, substantially so.... :yes:

Sounds like fun, boys!
You have the requisite gear to do this too, and your M19Z crossovers will run most all of these combinations adequately for starters. :thmbsp:

Just need to get your dumpster bass bins running.

[Or flip over those Heresys there.... :p: ]
 
If anyone wants these horns, I can probably get them for other people for $30 or so each... anyone wants me to check, I'll be glad to. IMHO, they've just got a smooth quality (at least they did with the D210Tis) that is RARE for a horn.

Gordon, I'd like to try a pair. These are 1" throat, or ?
 
Food for thought...but it will wait for tomorrow!

I'll do that Jack. What you have looks listenable now. :yes:

It really sounds quite nice. Very smooth through the crossover region. It boggles my mind how it can be that good, but maybe it is some knowledge beginning to sink in. Altec's guys had it, didn't they?

Durn good, I would say. Look also to the Pi Speakers compensation filter:

http://www.pispeakers.com/Speaker_Crossover.doc

The 2 kHz bump would be dealt with separately.

[I'm making a list.... :p: ]

Wow, more to learn. 74 pages, no less. But there are some things in that document that should vastly improve the performance of this EconoWave if the lessons can be learned and utilized. Thanks for that link. It is much appreciated. There is hope for tomorrow.
 
Did some reading this morning.

There are some calculations that are not explained in the Pi Speakers writeup, and needed some figuring out. Hopefully I did it right.

Here is the compensating network I came up with to drop the gain of the HF by 10 Db and to provide high end boost as well. It does flatten out the upper octave somewhat, but a little more may be needed.

The Xover schematic is given, and shows the compensation parts, a 24 Ohm res, a 15 Ohm res, and a 1.5 Microfarad cap.

The top FR shows the tweeter response with the L-Pad at max, and no upper compensation (1.5 Microfarads). Next is with the 1.5 microfarads added, and the L-pad still maxed. Then with the L-Pad lowered to approx ideal setting. Looks like a case could be made for response of +/- 3 Db. Still more work needs to be done, but is a really fun project. And it sounds sweeeeet, too.

I wonder if my L-Pad is in the right place, or if it is upsetting something. Also the values in the compensation need to be retweaked, since using such a large capacitor probably will affect the resistor values.
 

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You've got it within what, +/- 2.5 dB Jack? I'm guessing that's sounding mighty nice. :thmbsp:

I've never understood the backwards L-Pad thing (24 and 15 Ohms there). He has a write up on it somewhere on that site, as I recall, but I can't find it among my bookmarks anymore.

That paper lays out what HF compensation is about, and explores the appropriate contour. :yes:

He certainly dialed in the Eminence driver and horn. Maybe we can invite him to join our little EconoWave collaborative.... :p:
 
Gordon, I'd like to try a pair. These are 1" throat, or ?

1" screw-on throat. Uses a screw-on driver, or with an adapter, a bolt-on.

I like screw-on throats, because you can easily and properly compare drivers with both types of mount, without compromising anything... the total throat length is pretty much the same on a bolt-on driver with an adapter, as a screw-on driver. OTOH, using a screw-on adapter on a bolt-on flare and a screw-on driver, results in SEVERAL INCHES too much throat length... which changes the horn flare rate and contour, quite a bit!

I found out that my local guys do have these available, right now... anyone interested, should PM me (no offers to buy here, please- by PM only).

Regards,
Gordon.
 
Saturday morning was time for the kid to play around with the EconoWave's some more. The last FR that was posted looked pretty good, but there was a hump at about 1.6 KHz, which should have been below that level if it were coming from the tweeter. I measured the response with the L-Pad at minimum, and it looked like the first FR measurement. Since the woofer was causing the problem, and some say the LE14A's play better at around 800-900 Hz, the values to cross it were calculated for 1000 Hz instead of the 1.2 KHz it was running. The second FR shows the resulting measurement. The hump at 1.6 is magically reduced. The third FR shows the overall result with the L-Pad set where I would consider it "ideal." Now it can be called +/- 2.5 Db for sure, at least above 1 KHz, which is where the intent of this thread is taking us.

The woofer has some roller coaster looking response, but it may be just room effects, since this project is being done in my garage. I have spread carpet out in front of the speakers, and cover that with a folded moving pad for the speaker being measured. Another pad is hung covering the garage door behind the area. I haven't tried lifting the speakers yet, but may get to that.

The LE14A may need some compensation, but since the scope of this thread is to build an HF section that will play with almost any woofer, to attempt compensating it will be outside the scope of this project.

I've never understood the backwards L-Pad thing (24 and 15 Ohms there). He has a write up on it somewhere on that site, as I recall, but I can't find it among my bookmarks anymore.

That paper lays out what HF compensation is about, and explores the appropriate contour. :yes:

He certainly dialed in the Eminence driver and horn. Maybe we can invite him to join our little EconoWave collaborative.... :p:

I had never seen that compensation circuit before, but after looking at it for awhile, it probably makes more sense if some upper octave compensation is desired. It gives a much larger value to work with than the standard L-Pad values. That would require a humongous capacitor to work across 5 Ohms.
 

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Through for tonight.

Since I had components for a 900 Hz crossover, the low pass was dropped to 900 Hz, which eliminated any leftover bump from the woofer. The hi pass was tried at 2.5 KHz, but a lot of the 2 KHz bump from the D220Ti was displayed. Tried 2.7 KHz and still got a bit of a 2 KHz bump, so raised the hi pass to 3 KHz. Wow, no bump from the tweeter, none from the woofer, and now we are at roughly +/- 2 Db.

I fear we have built another pair of keepers. The LE14A's are certainly not challenged at 900 Hz, and the D220Ti's are well above Seleniums recommended minimum 1.5 KHz crossover. I sat and listened to a few CD's while drinking a celebratory glass or two of porter. Myrna stopped in to pick up some tools, and came over to listen to them for a few minutes. Her comment was, "Wow, those sound good." Couldn't have said it better myself.

Another day or so, and maybe some more improvements will rear their ugly heads. But as they stand, these are very, very nice sounding speakers. And since this is about Econo, maybe I will take a look at the D210Ti's as well. They will save about $20 from the total cost, as long as the savings isn't eaten up in extra compensation components. Inductors are costly after all.

And while I was at it, here is a pic of the tops for some end tables I am building. They are adjacent slices of the trunk of a mesquite tree. They are leaning on a pair of Altec Valencia 846A's.
 

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I'm going to recommend you get the Behringer CX3400 that several of us are using, good 2-way, 2-way plus sub, or 3-way.

It's connected into my test setup here, and when I want to run passive, I just pull the input XLR and plug that of whichever amp I want to use into it. The mutes, inverts, and versatile array of gain controls make system configuration a breeze.... :yes
Very cool project guys. I am currently still putting together the pieces of the Model 19. I was looking at active crossovers and their benefits. That Behringer CX3400 is actually less expensive when you think of all the pieces needed for a model 19 passive xover. Would I be able to control the high frequency response with the active to the same degree as the stock passive crossovers and attenuators? If so, I'm off to Guitar center in the mornng.
 
It has a CD compensation button with a fixed contour. We know that works nicely with some Altec drivers on 811B, but nobody's confirmed it with measurements using 802-8G or 902-8B, I believe it is, Model 19 drivers. No matter, passive compensation may also be implemented as desired using filters such as 30923, and they can be built variable as well, in effect emulating the adjustability in the M19 crossover.

Once Skywave gets his BMS drivers, he's going to send me his 902s to measure, and we'll have an answer as to the suitability of the CD EQ built into the CX3400 for use with those drivers on 811B horns. I'll likely do 511As also, since I have them, and maybe some others such as MR931 and XT1086. That's not to suggest that everyone would like any of it, even if it measures well, rather merely establishing what it is.

[I say do it.... :yes: ]
 
If I'm understanding you right, Zilch, the CX3400 could be augmented with an adjustable circuit ala the originals without implementing the full passive network? Have a link to the 30923 filter you cited? Much thanks for all your work with the Altec's and I realize your main love is with JBL. Very giving of your time, I'd say.
 
The hi pass was tried at 2.5 KHz, but a lot of the 2 KHz bump from the D220Ti was displayed. Tried 2.7 KHz and still got a bit of a 2 KHz bump, so raised the hi pass to 3 KHz. Wow, no bump from the tweeter, none from the woofer, and now we are at roughly +/- 2 Db.
Confirming 3 kHz, i.e., 4.7 uF and 0.6 mH:

attachment.php


I also smoothed out 7 kHz by tweaking the compensation, now 40 Ohms parallel with 20 Ohms series and 2.2 uF parallel bypass. See results with 4 drivers below. I may tweak that a bit more, but give it a try. While the 2 kHz bump is evident on RTA, it's not there on MLS or SIN. Go figure.

The compensation network is impedance sensitive. Any fixed L-Pad attenuation should be precise; I'm using 8-Ohms nominal for calculating. It should go before any final adjustable, as those are not very constant impedance, despite the hype.

I'll work on the lowpass tomorrow; still using Model 19 crossover for that here.

[OH, and yeah, these sound damn good.... :yes: ]
 

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Kudos guys!

Hope to have 4552NDs this week, which would be good because I have a few days off. Then will swap out 902s and send them to Zilch.

Z, what's ur fave JBL 12" woofer? I know u told me but can't find the PM, sorry. Starting to look around so I can do this EconoWave thing on my dumpster-bins....

U guys make it look easy.:thmbsp:
 
Z, what's ur fave JBL 12" woofer?
It's a family of essentially the same driver, the L100 woofer: 123A, 123A-1, 123A-3, 2212, 2213H.

You want boomy rock monitor bass, put them in a ducted too-small alignment like L100, 4311, et al. For hi-fi, they go closed-box in a larger 2.5 - 3.5 cuft. Gordon knows how to make bandpass subs using them, too.

If you study them in a box modeling program, you'll find they're closed-box drivers, though JBL never used them that way. Despite their heavily damped cone, they'll play up through 1.5 kHz competently, and some of them beyond. :thmbsp:

JBL L88s have a removable tweeter panel, and JBL sold a kit to upgrade those to L100s. I haven't looked in detail yet, but I'm thinking EconoWave will fit in that area instead.

Here's my first look at that from a couple of years ago with BMS on the EconoWaveguide. Closing the port kills the boom and makes them more high fidelity monitors than control monitors, so with the addition of ZilchPlugz, you get two speakers in one:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=123070#post123070

Vintage classic dumpster-bins'll work with these versatile woofers too, I betcha.... ;)
 
The compensation network is impedance sensitive. Any fixed L-Pad attenuation should be precise; I'm using 8-Ohms nominal for calculating. It should go before any final adjustable, as those are not very constant impedance, despite the hype.

I'll work on the lowpass tomorrow; still using Model 19 crossover for that here.

[OH, and yeah, these sound damn good.... :yes: ]

They really do sound damn good. My wife asked if I could replace the JBL 2431's in my DIY 4430s with the Seleniums and sell the JBL's. I said "No, dear, it don't work that way."

I haven't messed with the resistor values in the compensation network yet, cause I thought they had to be exact to match the driver impedance to the crossover. Then it dawned on me that introducing the HF comp capacitor changes the impedance depending upon frequency. Thats how it works. Well then, why not look at some other ways to skin the cat. The way the final L-Pad is configured in my previous schematics allows the compensation cap to drive it's correction into the resulting impedance sum of the tweeter plus the resistance between pins 2 and 3 of the L-Pad. That resistance is big compared to the other values in the circuit, so it's share of the correction voltage is fairly large. Plus it is wasted due to the fact that the tweeter drive doesn't include that part of the correction voltage.

Flipping both ends of the connection between the HF section of the crossover to the tweeter gives the circuit labeled modded HF as shown here. Now although the L-Pad works exactly the same as before, the resistance between pins two and three can be bipassed, with the compensation capacitor hooked to the tweeter instead of to the L-Pad. Having all of the correction voltage drive available to the tweeter regardless of the L-Pad setting, allows the reduction of the cap to 1 microfarad while providing more HF correction than the previous circuits 2 Microfarads. The trail off in response at 20 KHz is less with this connection. as shown in the FR pix.

The first FR shows the response with max L-Pad setting. The second shows min L-Pad setting, while the third shows what would probably be ideal for me. Actually, the L-Pad will reduce the volume even lower than my min FR shows, but it is probably about as low as it would be adjusted if you wanted some HF sound, and had a very inefficient woofer.

Zilch, there are some real possibilities that by juggling the values of the compensation resistors and capacitor we can achieve something as close as could be had with tuned circuits. JackLab is about at the end of it's rope, as far as doing this. My selection of power resistors is skimpy at best, and caps are not much better, since most of my stock is larger values. Maybe you can finalize this if you think it is worth pursuing.

Obviously, once frequency falls in to 1.25 KHz or below range, that becomes a woofer effect, so don't consider any FR except from 1.6 KHz and up. And perhaps a final juggle with xover frequencies will yield a smoother cross into the tweeters range. Obviously the slight rising response in the HF band indicates the 1 microfarad is probably a little large.
 

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I looked at that, Jack, and I believe there's an issue of the L-Pad increasingly pulling the cap to common, and ultimately shorting it to there, when set to max attenuation.

I tweaked the compensation contour in SPICE; just have to spend a bit more time with that to optimize for the range of stock driver response variability at the very top end. In any case, there's an element of "Guilding the Lily" here. It's not as if I can actually hear anything up there.

I note there's a link to a version of SPICE on the Pi Speakers main page, though I've never downloaded it and looked how functional it might be.... :dunno:
 
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