Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Zilch, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. wianieq

    wianieq AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    595
    I think I'll go and give those Barzilays another look when I get off work. I'm not 100% thats what they are, but they have the same grills and look like them.

    Can I expect these to go lower than the New Large Advent woofers? Right now they don't. I didn't catch the passive step compensation approach you mention so I'll go back and looksy some more.

    Thanks.
     
  2. rage

    rage Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    831
    Location:
    Michigan
    I saw that post Zilch. :)

    "Head and shoulders better than most diffraction horns...."

    Not bad for $30 for the pair.
     
  3. Zilch

    Zilch Curve Junkie Subscriber

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    KDT, Kapplite 3012LF Woofer, QSC Waveguide, DE250 Driver

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]


    Vertical Polar Map, +/- 20° from forward axis, in 5° increments:

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  4. Zilch

    Zilch Curve Junkie Subscriber

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    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 15, 2010
  5. skywave-rider

    skywave-rider Slumming in Akihabara

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    My interpretation of the waterfalls is they look good. Are the 4.6 and 2k blooms significant? They appear to be, what, 20 dB down?
    My eyes need tweaking.
     
  6. Zilch

    Zilch Curve Junkie Subscriber

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    They're 10 dB down by 2 ms. At -20 db, all but inaudible, though those are likely real resonances somewhere in the system.

    [I'll remove the pipe insulation to see if it's that buzzing. :tongue: ]


    Edit: We can see why the QSC is difficult; I have it at the minimum posssible c/c distance with a 12" woofer, flange tucked behind with rear mounting, and with any displacement from the forward axis, the vertical nulls influence the reponse. Looks like it's good (-6 db) +15° to -10° from the midpoint between the waveguide and woofer.

    I struggled to aim the forward axis higher, but couldn't get that to happen without making a kludge of the crossover. Turns out, it's asymmetric in the desired direction (up) anyhow.... :thmbsp:
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  7. wianieq

    wianieq AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    595
    I went and got the Barzilay cabinets. The inside dimensions measure to be 5.1 cubic feet. I think that is pretty good for these. I do have a question, the existing woofer hole is 13.5 inches and that is about the width of the actual cone and a little of the accordian surround deal.

    Do I need to make that hole bigger? I would have to go a half inch around to make that the woofer could drop in from the other side. But I could mount it on the inside. I think I know the answer, but it would be nice if I was told that the easy way would be fine.

    This thing is almost all ready to go. I'm feeling pretty lucky to have scored these right after the woofers.
     
  8. Zilch

    Zilch Curve Junkie Subscriber

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    There are advantages to rear mounting the woofers with EconoWaves.

    It brings the acoustic centers of the drivers more into vertical alignment.

    [​IMG]

    [That good enough...? ;) ]
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  9. Duffinator

    Duffinator Spin The Black Circle

    Messages:
    7,736
    Location:
    Roseville, CA
    Not sure what woofer you have but the original holes are for Altec 604's and JBL D130's. My 604's mounted right up with no modifications.

    Did you measure the volume estimating it from the outside or actual measurements from the inside. Most of us come up with 4.5 to 4.6 CF of gross volume.
     
  10. similost

    similost Rockin and Rollin....

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    I was wondering about this.. A cab I've not seen?
     
  11. wianieq

    wianieq AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    595
    I measured the inside, but I could have been off a little. If they are pretty standard sizes then I must be off. I did it pretty quick.

    Is the 4.5 to 4.6 after the woofer and horn displacement? I think the screw holes line up for the woofers. The big hole is only 13.5 in diameter. If they line up for sure, I'm going to mount them and see if I can hear a difference.
     
  12. Duffinator

    Duffinator Spin The Black Circle

    Messages:
    7,736
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    Roseville, CA
    Gross is without anything inside the cabinet. A 15" woofer takes a smaller than 15" hole. Altec 604 and JBL D130 are both 15" woofers.
     
  13. drumdude

    drumdude New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    West Virginia
    Big Ugly Ewaves

    I ordered parts planning to ewave my NLA's that have been sitting in the closet with a dead tweeter. but I decided these needed some help first, since I actually use them for the occasional jam session or DJ gig. So here are some big PA/DJ cabs that I got for next to nothing. they were cheapies to start with then a kitty used the cabs for a scratching post. Can't hurt to try it.
    [​IMG]
    needless to say, they are not the highest in fidelity. the original crossover ran the 15" full out.
    a single cap on the mids and a cap + resister on the peizo tweet. I disconnected everything except the 15" woof,
    wire nutted a crossover and listened. then I had to swap a few parts to convert to the >95db version.
    [​IMG]
    I arrived at this. [​IMG]
    Red curve is original, green is with ewave x-over. waveguide sitting on top of cab. Looks like bit of a hump around 2K still. Maybe I need to try the JBL variant that high passes the woof at 900?
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  14. Zilch

    Zilch Curve Junkie Subscriber

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    Last edited: Feb 17, 2010
  15. maxmercy

    maxmercy Member

    Messages:
    63
    Zilch,

    Wowsa. Very cool. The 3012LF is not super econo, but great bang-for-buck.

    Have you tried the JBL horn with the Selenium driver with the 3012LF? Or is the QSC that much better? Any reason to choose 3012LF vs 3012HO?

    You may have to link the above to the first page, or the project summary...

    JSS
     
  16. Brett

    Brett Active Member

    Messages:
    211
    Location:
    Oz
    If that read 37.1Hz, my guess would have been textbook 6th order assisted.

    I've finally found some time to work on the JBL mock up I did ages ago, and 6th order works nicely for the 2225H in 55L net.

    [​IMG]

    That's with 400W and still only hitting 4.2mm. If the test box works as well as that looks, then it might just be the ticket for the rears/sides, with either the 2123 or AE TD10M and the PT95 or QSC106 and some of the CD's I have laying around.

    Which QSC flare are you discussing here? The rectangular 44 or round 106?
    I haven't been following the thread real close of late.
     
  17. Zilch

    Zilch Curve Junkie Subscriber

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    Location:
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    I chose LF over HO because it will take assist and make extended bass in these small cabs, OR mate with subs, as in HT or SR, without. I believe I have been able to cross it low enough at 1.5 - 1.6 kHz. I'd have to build up a pair with HO like Brandon's No Quarters to compare the mids.

    It's the 0446 (?) rectangular QSC so we can use the DE250 with essentially the same pattern as the standard econo waveguides. Somebody's going to have to build with the round ones and measure the forward vertical lobe for comparison. It's a rigorous criterion Wayne visits upon us.

    With respect to the standard Selenium setup, I documented that a couple of weeks ago using DC300 woofers. I'll stick Seleniums in these on the QSC waveguides with the 3012s eventually to see if that is a viable option. If it can be said there's slack after just having these for a couple of days, others are going to have to pick it up; I've been working this pretty intensly for several months, now. I need to get this posted over on PE Tech Talk to see if anybody wants to work out other XO topologies with this combo.... :yes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  18. Russellc

    Russellc AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    5,730
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    KC MO
    Nice and flat, Zilch. Did you say you were getting into the high 30's with that kappalite woofer, or was that with active "bump" on the bass end?

    Russellc
     
  19. Russellc

    Russellc AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,730
    Location:
    KC MO
    They are typically in two sizes, sounds like you got the larger ones. Everything from DC-300 (cheap) to JBL 2235H or the nice AE drivers Similost is using. Lots of choices, good cab to grab!:thmbsp:

    russellc
     
  20. Russellc

    Russellc AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,730
    Location:
    KC MO
    Is that the DC 300 there?

    russellc
     

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