Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Zilch or Jack, would one of you kindly post a pic of your crossover, both sides?
My layouts are typically a little sloppy looking and this one will live on top of the box for a while. My layout skills leave a little to be desired! My stuff arrived today, sounds like I neednt bother with the Eminence 2002.

While I will post more along the way, post #127 in this thread shows my actual JBL 4647 box with the econowave on top as it is now. Am waiting for Zilch to try the econowave with JBL 2425H, am excited to see those results, when that driver is gotten around to. For now, I want to spread the econowave project with its intended driver! I'm heating up the Hakko now.


Thanks!
Russellc
 
I tried the Eminence PSD:2002 on one of Eminence's horns in a pair of Altec Madera's once. Planned to use them as rear speakers in a home theater system. The total effect was great, but it was still missing the high end. Eminence rates the PSD:2002 to 20 KHz, but in looking at the factory spec's, response starts dropping about 14 KHz, and is down 25 Db at 20 KHz. I don't see how they can justify rating the device to 20 KHz.

If you do try the Eminence, you will need a super tweeter to get the top end. I feel sure that the EconoWave will easily best the Eminence combo, even with a super tweeter. And considering price, absolutely no contest.

While testing the EconoWave, I had them in the library and compared them to my DIY 4430's. These consist of JBL L200 cabinets, 2235 woofers, and 2431 HF drivers on the more expensive Waveguide. When they were finished I couldn't believe any speaker could best them. And the EconoWave didn't beat them, but it was close, very close. And positioning the speakers in the room may have made up for any inadequacies, but I didn't get to that point. I was ecstatic that the EconoWave performed so well.

Please keep us informed as you build your EconoWaves, and be sure to include some pictures. We all love pictures.

Say, which wave guide is on your DIY 4430? Does it use a straight 4430 clone crossover or some other concoction?

Thanks,
Russellc
 
Zilch or Jack, would one of you kindly post a pic of your crossover, both sides?

My stuff arrived today, sounds like I neednt bother with the Eminence 2002.

Thanks!
Russellc

Russellc, I would be glad to include pics of my crossovers, but they are screwed onto the inside bottoms of the Santana's, and are about eight feet off the floor. I almost wrenched my back getting them up there, and might kill myself getting them down, and then back up. I will try to take some pics of my typical crossover layout. I use printed circuit boards, and since the layout doesn't include places for the limiting resistors, all of that stuff is just sort of hung in unused holes, and patched together. Zilch can probably provide pics of typical crossovers, since he has a huge stash of them.

I didn't mean to discourage you about trying the Eminence at all. Trying, or playing with an idea, is a big part of the DIY game. How else are we gonna learn? But I really feel the EconoWave will be better, even though I have not heard the other system. Maybe Wayne P. has done some kind of magic thing in his crossover, and the Eminence is much better than my imagination. Stanger things have happened. Give it a try.

The waveguide in my DIY 4430 is exactly the same size as the one used in the Econowave, but has a different sized throat, and costs about ten times as much. The crossover is a mix of JBL crossovers, and tweaked by Zilch. It is a printed circuit assembly, which I probably do have some pix of. Let me look.

Edit: A quick search doesn't let me find what I am looking for, but here is a picture of the crossovers used in the three way evaluation mentioned toward the end of this thread. The 900 HZ crossover uses iron core inductors, while the 3500 Hz crossover uses air core. Note that the inductors are placed at right angles to each other to essentially eliminate cross coupling due to inductive effects.
 

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Russellc,
I can't wait to hear what you think! I have just ordered my the JBL horns, and will soon get the seleniums
 
My EconoWave XOs are still wire-nutted together here.

[Nobody wants to see that again.... :p: ]
 
Hey jack thanks for the pics, I kind of looked at how the PE one in the A7s was laid out, I had seen in other posts some nicely arranged cross overs you guys had made, just to get an idea. I guess a printed circuit board would make it the neatest. Wayne P. does use compensation, but I think I am more interested in
the Seleniums and the JBLs than the 2002s.

Russellc
 
Russellc,
I can't wait to hear what you think! I have just ordered my the JBL horns, and will soon get the seleniums

Well I will know shortly, but these econo wave guides have developed a good enough rep around here you know its gonna be fun!:yes:

Russellc
 
Member ValvTubeHead used BMS, but his setup illustrates the concept very nicely, also combining his beautiful Muska bookshelves with supplemental subs:

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...updated my econo-waveguide rig a little bit this week...pair of av123 x-subs (gorgeous satin cherry finish to match the rack); crossing at 100Hz. Much improved over the scavenged pc subs, very musical. :sing:

CIMG6092small.jpg

processing
Behringer DEQ2496
Behringer CX3400

amps
Subs -av123
Mids- Behringer 500A
Highs-Trends Audio TA-10.1 (t-amp)

sources
Kenwood KT8300
Slim Devices SqueezeBox 3

xo
3way, CD off - a little too much ear tickle when on
low - 100Hz
high - 1.2kHz

drivers
sub/low - pair of AV123 X-subs
low/mid- John Muska of S.F. bookshelf; 1.3cuft, cabs loaded w/Dayton DC250-8 10" PE classics
high-BMS 4550 comp. drivers mounted on JBL’s famousfrugal waveguides
 
Sweet

ValvTubeHead, your updated setup looks sweet.
I have BMS on 8" woofers too. These are not officially EconoWaves but the waveguide is there. Currently working on official Econowaves with Selenium/JBL 123A1/Dumpster Bin boxes.

In my placement, I don't need subwoofers.
My EV Sentry....er...Zentrys:
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WOW! Skywave rider, those look way nicer than mine do, krikey!
I have one up and running, soldering up the other now. told you my cross overs suck!

Russellc
 

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ValvTubeHead, your updated setup looks sweet.
I have BMS on 8" woofers too. These are not officially EconoWaves but the waveguide is there. Currently working on official Econowaves with Selenium/JBL 123A1/Dumpster Bin boxes.

In my placement, I don't need subwoofers.
.... :thmbsp:

I'm thrilled beyond beyond with the flexibility my rig of separates has offered up..active xo and bi/tri-amp mix and match dynamics are very polite; very easy to enjoy.

I've been in a bookshelf mindset for a good long while, maybe too long, but the small sub pair do their part in this config; bolstering the lows where the 10" dayton's start to roll off, and the bms drivers seem to play effortlessly at 1.2 and above, again allowing the modest daytons to really shine in mid duty.

My master plan does include a 2-way discount Viscount with proper passive XO...bought & shelved a pair of 338650-001 waveguides for that day. Need to find just the right cabs, a stretch of time to massage 'em and space to put them.:stupid:
 
Alright, both in operation, I think I will just let these play for a while along with a little Pappy Van Winkle!

First blush I was expecting more bass, but I am not sure how long these JBL cabs and drivers have been setting somewhere and they made need to "loosen up" a little? (maybe they just need a set of 2235H instead of the 2225H) Highs are different and definately more extended compared to the Altecs.

Russellc
 
WOW! Skywave rider, those look way nicer than mine do, krikey!
I have one up and running, soldering up the other now. told you my cross overs suck!

Russellc

DUDE,
Your's look good. I love the terminal strips! I use those too. Actually, what you see on my pic is not even a crossover, just the compensation circuit and notch filter (for BMS -- u don't need a notch on the Selenium.) Breadboard it and velcro it to the cab! I wish I could hear those.

Awaiting your reports.
 
...
My master plan does include a 2-way discount Viscount with proper passive XO...bought & shelved a pair of 338650-001 waveguides for that day. Need to find just the right cabs, a stretch of time to massage 'em and space to put them.:stupid:

Wonder why you got those waveguides as opposed to the El Cheapo (338800-001) $10.00 jobs? To get direct bolt on? What will be your driver? (Sorry if OT).
 
First blush I was expecting more bass, but I am not sure how long these JBL cabs and drivers have been setting somewhere and they made need to "loosen up" a little?
2225s are high-power sound reinforcement woofers and do not have extended bass. The response curves are in the lit:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/4647.pdf

Close one port, and see if that doesn't get you a bit more. As-is, with boundary reinforcement, they should be doing better than the A-7s already, but once you get 2235Hs in there, it's going to be a whole 'nother story.

[Check that you have both boxes connected in the same phase.... :yes: ]
 
2225s are high-power sound reinforcement woofers and do not have extended bass. The response curves are in the lit:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/4647.pdf

Close one port, and see if that doesn't get you a bit more. As-is, with boundary reinforcement, they should be doing better than the A-7s already, but once you get 2235Hs in there, it's going to be a whole 'nother story.... :yes:

Oh, these things are kicking major ass only after a couple of hours! The bass isnt bad, and its getting better, at first it didnt seem much stronger than the A7s, until something with a really good bass whack comes along ! Definately deeper than the A7s, didnt mean that.:thmbsp:

Next stop, sneak the spare 2225Hs out to the trunk and get them by "Slice Speakers" who is the local authorized JBL service place in the KC area and have them transformed into 2235H. Has anyone in the KC area used this center before?:scratch2:

You were right on Zilch, these things are amazing. Am itching to try some of the BMS drivers, as well as the other woofers. They are not placed in the ideal position,( in front of the A7s which are pushed flat back to the wall) but are really great sounding.:D

Russellc
 
Say Zilch, reading that info reminded me of something and the way my crossovers are wired to the Woofer. The positive output of the cross over is wired to the red marked post on the back of the 4647 enclosure.

The JBL literature points out that a positive signal on the BLACK post creates
a positive movement of the woofer cone, should I have that positive out put (marked + in the schematic from the thread) hooked to the black post on the back of the cab? I had heard of this concerning individual drivers, but I assumed this would be taken into account with an enclosure, faulty thinking on my part!

Russellc
 
Reversing the leads seems to have helped considerably, maybe its my imagination, ones thing for sure these econowaveguides kick ass and are not only well worth the small price of entry, but are one of the most fun speakers I have ever owned!

russellc
 
Hi Russellc,

Use a flashlight battery. Connect a couple of leads to the battery and quickly touch them to the speaker terminals. Positive on the battery will make the positive on the driver move out of it's basket; negative in.

I guess I'm going to have to order the waveguides and get going with this.

Regards,
John
 
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