• The move to the new server is done. There are some software and database maintenance updates in process. This has us passing the hat around to help out. We appreciate any donations. Seriously, even a dollar helps. The payment page may be found here - https://www.audiokarma.org/support.html

Sa-9100, DC offset question, Protection light

No matched pairs necessary (or even SLIGHTLY useful) in this power supply.

Plus not only will matched pairs cost you MORE, but NTE is the LAST resort for parts, and have a huge markup for the repackaging and remarking that makes other manufacturer's transistors into NTE's.

I choose the zetexes for many reasons, but their current handling capability and heat dissipation, especially while still delivering oodles of gain at lower currents, results in their being minimally stressed, even when the circuits they are feeding are misbehaving.

One of the possibilities I have been considering is that the power supply transistors have been operating at the top end of their stress tolerance for a long time and just aren't up to it in certain conditions.

As for that shorting allegedly at the relay, if you wish, you could check out the actual wiring at the relay to see if this is done, or is it just something drawn by some idiot apprentice draftsman. When I saw it in the schematic I immediately looked for the relay's PC board location to figure out what was going on by examining the foil pattern... no such luck, it's hardwired.

Monitoring with headphones is fine, plus the 150 ohm resistors it has in series with the headphones will limit the currents. Personally I have a few sets of old computer speakers that I use as low level sacrificial loads. If they pop, oh well, I was originally going to toss them anyway... but the computer speakers connected through a headphone plug would be unbeatable....

If the amp misbehaves, with no speaker load connected, there is no way anything can be damaged. Particularily on the outside, on the inside there are some rare conditions that the new c2682Y's pretty much eliminated, i.e. BOTH outputs turning on full at the same time, push-push as opposed to push-pull. The 150 ohms of the headphone resistors is insignificant to the output's capability.


IF the outputs are misbehaving, you should hear some sort of POP. This is why I suggested a voltmeter monitoring the output, WHILE it is in protection, if you can catch it, turn off the volume and look at the dc voltage at the output.

Like I said, it will be most interesting if the protection triggers with the protection circuit's inputs disconnected.

The HOT side disconnected wires from the amp must be insulated from each other, while 5 & 6 inputs at the board can be shorted together, as well as the 7 & 8 inputs, and the 1 & 3 inputs grounded, do all these if you want to be absolutely sure about eliminating any possible external influences. The impedances of these circuits are low enough that stray signals will most likely NOT affect things, but this way we are SURE...
 
Thanks Mark for the great detail. I'll go with your replacement part recommendations because you have been right on the money with the other parts. Mouser has the 522-ZTX795A but I don't see a 795B that you referenced for Q6 & Q8 on the power supply board. Should I use 795A's for Q4, Q6 & Q8?

I have some other matters coming up that will take me away for some time, but I'll order the parts tonight. It might be that the parts will be here before I can isolate the Protection circuit from the power amp, in which case I might just start off with the power supply rebuild.

When I get the bottom cover off again I'll try to look at the relay to see if pin 4 is realy connected to ground. That little line from ground to pin 4 might very well be a mistake. Without the line, both outputs would just float and the 35v would get shunted to ground when protection kicks in.

Finding out what is NOT the problem is progress Thanks again.
 
Thanks for the correction. I print out the data sheet for the original and the replacement to check lead arangement, voltages, and currents. A little typo here and there is no big deal. Thanks for not minding when I ask. Onward!
 
Hi inductor, nice to hear from you. Except for replacing the c1451's on both power amps I haven't been over them. They are a little harder to get to and more fragile than the Power Supply or Protection circuit. Rest assured, I will go back to them if my rebuilds are unsuccessful.

My question however is, would a dry solder joint have this failure mode? I would think a cold or dry solder joint, although intermitent, would fail for more than a micro second before returning to normal. The ones I've seen stop conducting at all (after a while), and maybe that's where it's headed. An outright failure of the component or joint would sure be easier to find. Also, hitting the solder joints won't do any harm and doesn't cost anything.

I'll keep your point in mind and hit all the joints on any PCB I'm working on to cover all the bases. Thanks.
 
Another procedure I have recommended a lot for intermittents is the hairdryer and freeze spray technique. Of course, you don't want to get the components TOO hot, but I think I don't have to stress the point with you.

Shacky (and I) located a temperature sensitive clock crystal in a sx-3?00 with this method, after replacing the transistor in the oscillator yielded no results.

The idea is to either advance the onset of the symptom to where it can be reliably replicated and traced, narrow the focus of the temperature swings to one component or to stress the component into complete failure.

I have found that "canned air" also works well for cooling, and is a little cheaper and easier to find.

BUT the ONE area I would NOT directly heat stress is the power supply regulators, most could already be at the hottest point I would go, and though cooling could shock something weak into failure, the intermittent nature of the failure would make me inclined to think that cooling would inhibit the failure as opposed to accelerating it.
 
I have to say inductor that you gave me a good laugh with the 3000 miles away comment. This has occurred to me ever since we started this project and all I can say is, "ain't it the truth!" With you and Mark behind me I know we'll get to the bottom of this and then we'll all have a good laugh and say "gee, I was thinking of that as a possibility". Thanks everyone for taking the time to give me some direction. I'll report back when I have some results.
 
Well my plan was to replace all the tranistors on the power supply board (AWR-032) and test, then if the problem remained, do the same on the protection board (AWH-023). If still no luck, I'd be looking at the right and left channel power amps in more detail than just the pair of fuji c1451's I had already replaced on each channel.

The parts came in (all $6.54 for both the power supply and the protection board, minus shipping) and I replaced all the transistors on the power supply board (it had already been recapped). I had heat sink compound ready for the power transistors Q1 & Q2, (Mouser number: Q1=512-KSD526 and Q2=512-KSB596YTU) and everything else went smoothly. Since some of the originals were ECB and most of the replacements were EBC, great attention was paid to installing the transistors correctly. Pioneer makes this much easier by printing the transistor symbol right on the circuit board. The emitter, base, and collector are all indicated and if you follow it carefully you'll be OK.

At power up, I was ready to pull the plug in case I had screwed up or a short circuit happened during the rebuild. However, no problem. I tested the power supply voltages and everything looked good. In fact, most of the voltages had tightened up a bit. My thought was, when some little ripple comes along in the +56V and -56V lines (mine was +63 & -62.8V before the rebuild, +58 & -58.8 after) the d313 and the B507 just couldn't reliably take it. Thier Vcbo is +60 & -60. The replacements have a Vcbo of +80 & -80. I did not touch the protection board.

At any rate, I set the dc offset to about 1.0mv on both channels, checked the bias which was fine, and also checked the voltages into the protection board which were also fine. I buttoned the amp up and hooked it up to the speakers.

I did one test for 24 min with no problems. However, I know that much playing time will be required before I declare "Mission Successful." In the past, problems came along at 10min, 18min, 16min, and sometimes I've gone for an hour without protection popping in. If this fixed the problem, it should never pop in again (without real good reason). I'll play some tunes for an hour or so a day and report back if the trouble returns. Thanks Mark for your outstanding replacement suggestions. I also want to thank inductor for his insight, experience, and helpful comments that got me this far. I owe AK a good donation. Thanks again guys.

Test Two, 30 min no problems.
Test Three, 37 min no problems.
Test Four, 36 min, no problems.
Test Five, 55 min, no problems.

It seems that my problem was a transistor in the power supply that was unstable. In time it might have failed completely. Replacing all the transistors on the power supply seemed like the way to go since I didn't know which one was the problem (or even for sure that the problem was in the power supply). In retrospect it was a lucky guess. Almost anything going wrong in the power supply, the power amps, or the protection board itself, would trigger the protection cutting in. But for now, I'm up and running. Total cost with lots of spare parts left over, $30. The help and direction I got from other AK members, well that's where the real value lies. Thanks again.

Final Note: 10/12/2007, Many hours of music, never popped into protection mode again since rebuilding power supply.
 
:lurk:

inductor gets credit too, those fuji's could have been a ticking time bomb, with TWO of them (in EACH channel) in EXACTLY the worst place to have a failure in the amp. Magic Smoke I garrrooonnnteeeee..........

those TO-126 transistors in those locations should be like a Timex --- take a licking and keep on ticking....
 
Folks, as a follow-up for future folks with a problem...

The 2 390 ohm, 1/2 watt resistors on the power suppy B (regulator) board are just a bit under-sized and tend to fracture and crack, becoming intermittent. Replace with 1W, metal oxide resistors. they will fit in the original space, and add a bit of derating, which is greatlly needed.

The big hitter for this kind of problem is Q1, which is a 2SD313. The heatsink is undersized for this part, and eventually you will get the transistor encapsulation to crack, exposing it's innards to the air. There is where most of you will find the source of intermittent protection faults. Frequently, when the transistor is on its way out, it will become vibration sensitive. Light taps on its heatsink will cause protection faults of various lengths.

2SD313 transistors are still available, if you look.

For SA-9100s, in addition to recapping and refreshing all circuit board solder joints, and DeOxiting controls, the following should be done, as a matter of course:

  • Lightly burnish the protection relay contacts
  • Replace protection relay driver, Q7, on the protection board (2SC1384, still available from Digikey as ROHS part: 2SC13840. This one is likely stressed by overvoltage, due to flyback voltage from relay coil upon release.)
  • Replace Q6 on the protection board (2SC945, use ZTX-694B from Digikey...relay coil voltages again)
  • Replace Q5 on the protection board (2SA733, use ZTX795A from Digikey...relay coil voltages again)
  • Add 1N4004 across the protection relay coil, cathode to the high (+), to snub flyback votages when relay is released)
  • Replace Q1 on Power Supply Circuit-B board (2SD313, available from Newark/MCM, heatsink is undersized and this one is either bad, or going bad)
  • Replace Q2 on the Power Supply Circuit-B board (2SB507, available from Newark/MCM also likely to be thermally stressed, but not as bad as Q1)
  • Replace resistors, R12 & R13, as stated above.

Of all the parts to replace, I suggest that the main hitters for intermittent SA-9100 protect faults are (in order of priority): Q1 on the power supply board, and Q7 on the protection board. Also, I would expect Q5 on the protection board to go before Q6, as supplemental places to suspect.

Please, replace all 'lytic caps on the power supply circuit-B board. Particularly the ones anywhere near the heatsinks and hot transistors. Use 105 degC parts instead of the standard 85 degC parts.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
Folks, as a follow-up for future folks with a problem...

The 2 390 ohm, 1/2 watt resistors on the power suppy B (regulator) board are just a bit under-sized and tend to fracture and crack, becoming intermittent. Replace with 1W, metal oxide resistors. they will fit in the original space, and add a bit of derating, which is greatlly needed.

The big hitter for this kind of problem is Q1, which is a 2SD313. The heatsink is undersized for this part, and eventually you will get the transistor encapsulation to crack, exposing it's innards to the air. There is where most of you will find the source of intermittent protection faults. Frequently, when the transistor is on its way out, it will become vibration sensitive. Light taps on its heatsink will cause protection faults of various lengths.

2SD313 transistors are still available, if you look.

For SA-9100s, in addition to recapping and refreshing all circuit board solder joints, and DeOxiting controls, the following should be done, as a matter of course:

  • Lightly burnish the protection relay contacts
  • Replace protection relay driver, Q7, on the protection board (2SC1384, still available from Digikey as ROHS part: 2SC13840. This one is likely stressed by overvoltage, due to flyback voltage from relay coil upon release.)
  • Replace Q6 on the protection board (2SC945, use ZTX-694B from Digikey...relay coil voltages again)
  • Replace Q5 on the protection board (2SA733, use ZTX795A from Digikey...relay coil voltages again)
  • Add 1N4004 across the protection relay coil, cathode to the high (+), to snub flyback votages when relay is released)
  • Replace Q1 on Power Supply Circuit-B board (2SD313, available from Newark/MCM, heatsink is undersized and this one is either bad, or going bad)
  • Replace Q2 on the Power Supply Circuit-B board (2SB507, available from Newark/MCM also likely to be thermally stressed, but not as bad as Q1)
  • Replace resistors, R12 & R13, as stated above.

Of all the parts to replace, I suggest that the main hitters for intermittent SA-9100 protect faults are (in order of priority): Q1 on the power supply board, and Q7 on the protection board. Also, I would expect Q5 on the protection board to go before Q6, as supplemental places to suspect.

Please, replace all 'lytic caps on the power supply circuit-B board. Particularly the ones anywhere near the heatsinks and hot transistors. Use 105 degC parts instead of the standard 85 degC parts.

Enjoy,
Rich P


Hi Rich P,
I just bought SA 9100 from ebay $130.00 but shipping to Uk is hefty!! Anyway please advise me as to what components I should plan to replace(which of the above list). Ad says it works fine so do I jump in and start changing or see how it performs. I would probably let a Audio Amp member see it first. Your advice will be valuable.
Regards
William
 
Hi Rich P,
I just bought SA 9100 from ebay $130.00 but shipping to Uk is hefty!! Anyway please advise me as to what components I should plan to replace(which of the above list). Ad says it works fine so do I jump in and start changing or see how it performs. I would probably let a Audio Amp member see it first. Your advice will be valuable.
Regards
William
If it operates without intermittent protection faults, I guess you could enjoy it for a while, but watch it carefully. If such faults occur, do at least this:

Lightly burnish the protection relay contacts

Replace protection relay driver, Q7, on the protection board (2SC1384, still available from Digikey as ROHS part: 2SC13840. This one is likely stressed by overvoltage, due to flyback voltage from relay coil upon release.)

Replace Q6 on the protection board (2SC945, use ZTX-694B from Digikey...relay coil voltages again)

Replace Q5 on the protection board (2SA733, use ZTX795A from Digikey...relay coil voltages again)

Add 1N4004 across the protection relay coil, cathode to the high (+), to snub flyback votages when relay is released)

Replace Q1 on Power Supply Circuit-B board (2SD313, available from Newark/MCM, heatsink is undersized and this one is either bad, or going bad)

Replace Q2 on the Power Supply Circuit-B board (2SB507, available from Newark/MCM also likely to be thermally stressed, but not as bad as Q1)

Replace resistors, R12 & R13, as stated above.

Of all the parts to replace, I suggest that the main hitters for intermittent SA-9100 protect faults are (in order of priority): Q1 on the power supply board, and Q7 on the protection board. Also, I would expect Q5 on the protection board to go before Q6, as supplemental places to suspect.

Please, replace all 'lytic caps on the power supply circuit-B board. Particularly the ones anywhere near the heatsinks and hot transistors. Use 105 degC parts instead of the standard 85 degC parts.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
Last edited:
If it operates without intermittent protection faults, I guess you coudl enjoy it for a while, but watch it carefully. If such faults occur, do at least this:

Lightly burnish the protection relay contacts

Replace protection relay driver, Q7, on the protection board (2SC1384, still available from Digikey as ROHS part: 2SC13840. This one is likely stressed by overvoltage, due to flyback voltage from relay coil upon release.)

Replace Q6 on the protection board (2SC945, use ZTX-694B from Digikey...relay coil voltages again)

Replace Q5 on the protection board (2SA733, use ZTX795A from Digikey...relay coil voltages again)

Add 1N4004 across the protection relay coil, cathode to the high (+), to snub flyback votages when relay is released)

Replace Q1 on Power Supply Circuit-B board (2SD313, available from Newark/MCM, heatsink is undersized and this one is either bad, or going bad)

Replace Q2 on the Power Supply Circuit-B board (2SB507, available from Newark/MCM also likely to be thermally stressed, but not as bad as Q1)

Replace resistors, R12 & R13, as stated above.

Of all the parts to replace, I suggest that the main hitters for intermittent SA-9100 protect faults are (in order of priority): Q1 on the power supply board, and Q7 on the protection board. Also, I would expect Q5 on the protection board to go before Q6, as supplemental places to suspect.

Please, replace all 'lytic caps on the power supply circuit-B board. Particularly the ones anywhere near the heatsinks and hot transistors. Use 105 degC parts instead of the standard 85 degC parts.

Enjoy,
Rich P
wtaylorbasil said:
Hi Rich P,

It has been some time and the SA9100 is still working fine. Now I have SA8100 for my den. On start-up only the left channel plays-I tried on all inputs. But if I sharply turn the volume to maximum, the right channel plays as well at any volume setting though the right seems slightly lower than the left. When I switch off and start again, I have to repeat the above process.

What possible reason/s could this be due to? Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
William
 
Hi Rich P,

It has been some time and the SA9100 is still working fine. Now I have SA8100 for my den. On start-up only the left channel plays-I tried on all inputs. But if I sharply turn the volume to maximum, the right channel plays as well at any volume setting though the right seems slightly lower than the left. When I switch off and start again, I have to repeat the above process.

What possible reason/s could this be due to? Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards
William
Sounds like you have an intermittent connection, somewhere downstream of the volume control: bad relay contact, fractured solder joint, dirty control, etc.

If you cannot clear up the issue, I suggest you post a new thread and maybe someone like markthefixer can guide to repair...

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
Last edited:
If it operates without intermittent protection faults, I guess you coudl enjoy it for a while, but watch it carefully. If such faults occur, do at least this:

Lightly burnish the protection relay contacts

Replace protection relay driver, Q7, on the protection board (2SC1384, still available from Digikey as ROHS part: 2SC13840. This one is likely stressed by overvoltage, due to flyback voltage from relay coil upon release.)

Replace Q6 on the protection board (2SC945, use ZTX-694B from Digikey...relay coil voltages again)

Replace Q5 on the protection board (2SA733, use ZTX795A from Digikey...relay coil voltages again)

Add 1N4004 across the protection relay coil, cathode to the high (+), to snub flyback votages when relay is released)

Replace Q1 on Power Supply Circuit-B board (2SD313, available from Newark/MCM, heatsink is undersized and this one is either bad, or going bad)

Replace Q2 on the Power Supply Circuit-B board (2SB507, available from Newark/MCM also likely to be thermally stressed, but not as bad as Q1)

Replace resistors, R12 & R13, as stated above.

Of all the parts to replace, I suggest that the main hitters for intermittent SA-9100 protect faults are (in order of priority): Q1 on the power supply board, and Q7 on the protection board. Also, I would expect Q5 on the protection board to go before Q6, as supplemental places to suspect.

Please, replace all 'lytic caps on the power supply circuit-B board. Particularly the ones anywhere near the heatsinks and hot transistors. Use 105 degC parts instead of the standard 85 degC parts.

Enjoy,
Rich P

wtaylorbasil said:
Rich P, thank you for the advice given some time ago. The SA9100 is working fine and I am once again enjoying vinyls.
I got myself the SA8100 & TX8100, but the amp has a problem.
Sound output is only on the left channel (with all inputs tried). When the volume is quickly turned to full, the right channel plays, though slightly less volume. It performs at all volume levels. Startup from off again, the problem comes back and I have to repeat as above.

Would you have any suggestion for the fault? Would appreciate some help.

William
 
Rich P, thank you for the advice given some time ago. The SA9100 is working fine and I am once again enjoying vinyls.
I got myself the SA8100 & TX8100, but the amp has a problem.
Sound output is only on the left channel (with all inputs tried). When the volume is quickly turned to full, the right channel plays, though slightly less volume. It performs at all volume levels. Startup from off again, the problem comes back and I have to repeat as above.

Would you have any suggestion for the fault? Would appreciate some help.

William
Sounds like one of the following: cold solder joint, fractured solder joint, dirty/oxidized switch or pot contact, dirty/oxidized input or output connector contact. Fractured and cold solder joints can be found, if they are susceptible to vibration, by lightly tapping the suspect boards and areas with an insulated item, like the handle of a small screw driver.

Start by making sure all controls, connections and relays are burnished or deoxited. If you have a switch in back to connect the preamp to the power amp, that would be suspect.

Since you are not getting protection faults, the amp stages seem to be working (unless protection somehow got defeated), so intermittect connection seems to be the likely problem.

That is about all I can offer from here.

Enjoy,
Rich P
 
Last edited:
Hello everyone, I'm back. My login name has changed to Capwinder, but I am Mpgasque and that is my SA9100 that my brother carried back from Japan for me over 50 years ago. I want to thank MarkTheFixer and everyone else that were so helpful in 2007 to get my protection light problem fixed.

Ever since I completed all the work on the SA9100, I wanted everyone to know that it has NEVER thrown the protection light once in the past 18 years! I still play music on it for hours at a time and it still sounds great. To be honest, I had forgotten what I did and how I did it, until I came across this thread. After reading the entire thread, I still don't have a clue. Oh well, I guess we all rise to the occasion with determination, and a little help from our friends. Thanks for everyone's help in what turned out to be a huge WIN!
 
Back
Top Bottom