Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

dnewma04 said:
Wayne, there is no doubt that the vertical nulls "could" make a difference and if Earl doesn't provide recommendations that would prevent misplacement on a purchasers part, then shame on him.
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There is no "could" about it. The nulls do make a difference, audible and measureable. Anti-phase nulls produce huge 10dB-15dB response anomalies and if they're present within the horn's pattern, then that pattern is useless. That's one reason I discourage the use of horns with wide vertical patterns. The other is the wasted HF energy that only serves to increase floor and ceiling reflections.

I do not see any good arguments for the use of symmetrical horns with wide vertical patterns on speakers that have drivers vertically stacked on a baffle.
 
dnewma04 said:
Let's be fair, what he is sending out (so far) has been pretty shoddy without a doubt from a construction standpoint. The performance of the finished products (Summas) have received nearly universally rave reviews. There were a few posts on some hifi forums indicating that at the RMAF, they found his speakers "boring" but it's a tough setting to make any real judgements, and boring often turns into satisfying while exciting turns into ear piercing and unliveable quickly in many rooms. Anyone who has listened to his set up with properly implemented sub-bass has come away with the impression that it was the best, or near the best sounding system they have ever come across.

Geddes is a huge PITA to deal with, but he knows his shit more thoroughly than anyone and his speakers show it.

Not taking anything away from the EWG, I bet the different variations sound excellent and sometime within the next 6 months or so, I will be building my own. I don't anticipate they will perform at or near the same level as the Summas, however.
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I have a feeling you will be pleasantly surprised, and glad to here your going to give them a whirl! Hopefully Geddes will iron out the early production problems.

russellc
 
Zilch said:
D123 will work, but I've never been able to get big or deep bass out of them. From discussions of that driver over on LHF, nobody else has, either. I've been wanting to try a 2.5 tower approach, as I have a poo pot of them around here.

123A (-1/-3), the L100 woofer, used in a closed box, 1.4 - 3 cuft., is a killer combo with E'Wave. Four or five of us have built with those to date. Same with 2212/2213/H, the JBL Pro editions of that driver.... :thmbsp:
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Think I'm in a deal to end up with a pair of 2213H...Econowave guide part II!:banana:

Russellc
 
Zilch, a 2213H question

I understand that the 2213H is best in a sealed 2-3 cu ft... assuming I can find/build them, what is the optimum size? As I recall from past threads, this is one that prefers "sealed" right?:scratch2:

Russellc
 
If my specs are correct, it's a fairly high Qts driver. In order to get into that maximally flat Q of .707 (which many desire) you'd be of approx 8 ft^3. At its rated 75w power handling, you'd be excursion limited to 48hz. At a Qtc of .85, you'd similar operating conditions but at 75w, you'd be exceeding linear excursion limits at 50hz but not running perilously close to mechanical limits below that freq. This would require a 4 cu ft box with heavy fill.

A 3 ft^3 box with heavy fill gets you a Q of .925, an F3 of 38hz, makes the 75w even more safe with the driver as you won't exceed 10mm excursion as opposed to approaching 14 and 11.5mm in the prior two options.

I'd say porting is out of the question. 3 cu ft sealed seems to be a good compromise of size, power handling, and damping. Might have a little more boom than you want, but not horribly so.
 
dnewma04 said:
If my specs are correct, it's a fairly high Qts driver. In order to get into that maximally flat Q of .707 (which many desire) you'd be of approx 8 ft^3. At its rated 75w power handling, you'd be excursion limited to 48hz. At a Qtc of .85, you'd similar operating conditions but at 75w, you'd be exceeding linear excursion limits at 50hz but not running perilously close to mechanical limits below that freq. This would require a 4 cu ft box with heavy fill.

A 3 ft^3 box with heavy fill gets you a Q of .925, an F3 of 38hz, makes the 75w even more safe with the driver as you won't exceed 10mm excursion as opposed to approaching 14 and 11.5mm in the prior two options.

I'd say porting is out of the question. 3 cu ft sealed seems to be a good compromise of size, power handling, and damping. Might have a little more boom than you want, but not horribly so.
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Surely not as much boom as in the L 100 ported!:thmbsp: I think it is this driver that Zilch has refered to as working really surprisingly well in 2.5 to 3.00 cuft. I dont think JBL ever used it sealed, but could be wrong.

Russellc
 
dnewma04 said:
I'd say porting is out of the question. 3 cu ft sealed seems to be a good compromise of size, power handling, and damping. Might have a little more boom than you want, but not horribly so.
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Thank you, Dave, for running the numbers. So far as I know, this is new territory for using L100/4311 woofers. I give 'em heavy fill:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=132559&#post132559

Russellc said:
Surely not as much boom as in the L 100 ported!:thmbsp: I think it is this driver that Zilch has refered to as working really surprisingly well in 2.5 to 3.00 cuft. I dont think JBL ever used it sealed, but could be wrong.
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Indeed. L100's half the size we're talking here, and that works closed box, as well:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12036

These aren't "modern" woofers, in terms of maximized power handling, lowest distortion, etc., but they're certainly not crap, either. Do we mind a little boominess down at 40 Hz? ;)
 
definitely not as boomy as the ported enclsoure would be unless you tuned low and made something like an EBP enclosure. Not enough space in your house to pull that off effectively, though. :)

At 3 cu ft, it won't be boomy to the point of being obnoxious, just maybe a little of that advent-like lower midbass/bass bloom. I think it will be a very good sounding combo. Another option to play with would be to toy around with an aperiodic membrane to see if you can even tighten things up a bit more or possibly reduce box size a bit.
 
Russellc said:
Surely not as much boom as in the L 100 ported!:thmbsp: I think it is this driver that Zilch has refered to as working really surprisingly well in 2.5 to 3.00 cuft. I dont think JBL ever used it sealed, but could be wrong.

Russellc
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Hey Russell,
I got my 123A1s running in a 2.3 cu ft sealed box with heavy fill, on Zilch's recommendation. Good result. I plan to switch it and put the horn on top, should give a little more box volume.

Curious as to what u paid for the woofers? Ebay?
 
I picked these up today for my Ewave project for my daughter's apt at University. The woof is very solid and when the guy I bought them from ran a tone gen thru them, they seem to quit at 40hz. We got noise down at 31hz but it was down quite a bit. The first thing I will try, just for fun, is hook the horn up to the tweet wires. They cross at just under 2000hz. They are 14" w, 25" h, and 16" d. It is a ten inch woof and very solid cabs. Below is a link for pics in an earlier thread as the server won't let me post the same pics twice. Cheers.


http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=181068
 
Nice, I think I remember those from wayback.
Will you put the waveguide right on top, above the recess?
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PS: You can insert url of image location into the "insert image" button. That way you don't upload it again.
 
Thanks for the tip Sky. To keep the distance close as possible, I think I will notch the top and bolt the lower lip of the waveguide to the woofer baffle board. I will also cut out the back of the top piece to slide the Xover into.....that is a seperate compartment. I am anxious to pull that woof just to see what it is. I'll post pics this weekend. Cheers.
 
I am tired tonight so I just popped the tweet and wired in the EWG. The bump in the vocals is noticable, but other than that, they sound great....I mean GREAT. I am still using the stock xover and the EWG is too high and back too far, but WOW, they sound great. :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:
 
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Gettin there!

I'll be gone all day on saturday so no firin them up till probably sunday, but they
are almost there, got a few things to tidy up, xover to finish and polish my badge!
 

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Kegger said:
I'll be gone all day on saturday so no firin them up till probably sunday, but they
are almost there, got a few things to tidy up, xover to finish and polish my badge!
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I saw this work in person when I picked up my drivers from Keg yesterday. He's going about it the right way.
Say, are you changing the badge from HPM to KPM or something?
 
I saw them too B. I really like the top cab and the grill to cover the xovers. He did a great job on the board covering the old holes too. Cheers.
 
djnagle said:
I am tired tonight so I just popped the tweet and wired in the EWG. The bump in the vocals is noticable, but other than that, they sound great....I mean GREAT. I am still using the stock xover and the EWG is too high and back too far, but WOW, they sound great. :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:
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Here it is, someone has taken a "garage sale" way inexpensive buy, put econowave on top, and before tweaking or anything is something way better than the cash put in would ever suggest! This may be the least expensive ECWG I've seen. $15 bucks plus econowave? ANY member can have a taste of this, no matter what the budget! Another is infected with the econowave bug. Cant wait for my woofs to begin part 2.

I may also have time today to go by radioshack and pick up some resistors and 9 volt battery snaps and put together the CC econowave crossover.
We'll see.:music:

Russellc
 
Russellc said:
This may be the least expensive ECWG I've seen. $15 bucks plus econowave? ANY member can have a taste of this, no matter what the budget!
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Close but no cigar. My cabinets were free and the L100 donor speakers were $10 for the pair!

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It is true though, any DIYer here can successfully build and enjoy the amazing Econowave. :thmbsp:
 
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