Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
For measurement mics, your preamp will need to provide phantom power.
Read recently about a USB preamp deriving that from the buss. Don't know if that's suitable for the configuration Dave is recommending here, tho:
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/344718.html
Can typical sound cards take input from USB, or is the soundcard bypassed with direct digital input?
How about a device like this:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MobilePreUSB.html
No soundcard involved?
dnewma04
The Healer
The phantom power is a requirement of the behringer mic and probably a number of others. IIRC, a DIY mic using a panasonic electret would not need phantom power. The capsules can be a bear to find at times, but someone reports finding them at Digikey. When placing the order for the Wallin Jig from digikey, might be worth buying a few capsules while you are at it.
http://www.vikash.info/audio/measurement_mic/
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/853-microphone-cartridge-6mm-omni-wm-61a.html
Appears to be a regularly stocked item now.
I'll order us a bunch if there is some interest and make some of these with some tube I have that might just work....If you want to DIY, there are some mods to increase SPL capabilities.
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Articles/diymic/diymicmain.htm
http://www.vikash.info/audio/measurement_mic/
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/853-microphone-cartridge-6mm-omni-wm-61a.html
Appears to be a regularly stocked item now.
I'll order us a bunch if there is some interest and make some of these with some tube I have that might just work....If you want to DIY, there are some mods to increase SPL capabilities.
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Articles/diymic/diymicmain.htm
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
True condensers require phantom power, a DC charge across the capacitor, or condenser. The standard is 48v DC. There are variations. I have run the Behringer mic on 48V, but I believe the DEQ2496 manual says it supplies 15v. IIRC. In any case, these mics can work with a range of voltage.
The electret condenser you Googled does not require an external polarizing voltage because one of its elements has been permanently charged.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electret_microphone
These mics however usually require a 1.5 v. DC supply for built in preamplification.
I don't know about the Panasonic capsule, but I have not seen an electret which does not need it.
The differences between true condensers and electrets are basically 1) sound quality (condensers are better in all respects); 2) portability and ease of use (electrets require no large phantom supply, or 4 car batteries in the field); and 3) cost (condensors are expensive relative to electrets.)
However relating to measurement mics, which we're not using for recording, electrets are pretty flat. So that's all we care about.
I hooked up a RS one a long time ago, but it sounded crappy. I'd give that Panasonic a shot, it's so cheap. :yes:
Don't mount it on the brass bar like in the pic, extend it forward.
jackgiff
Well-Known Member
Those look very nice indeed, Dr Beaker. I built a pair of EconoWaves in Electro Voice Baronet clones, using LE10H's. They are simply stunning, and yours are certainly sounding just as good. Thanks for the pictures.
Seems like Michigan is becoming "EconoWave Central."
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
How do the EQ's with there factory supplied mic's an pink noise generators work out?
I've got a Yamaha EQ1100U and it's factory supplied/calibrated microphone an RTA that
I've used in the past, seemed to be telling me what I actually heard from those speakers.
Not trying to say they could be anywhere near as helpful or do the same things as say a
Behringer but is there any decent use for one to at least test a speaker somewhat here?
I've got a Yamaha EQ1100U and it's factory supplied/calibrated microphone an RTA that
I've used in the past, seemed to be telling me what I actually heard from those speakers.
Not trying to say they could be anywhere near as helpful or do the same things as say a
Behringer but is there any decent use for one to at least test a speaker somewhat here?
What display do they provide?
Note to Andyman: Radio Shack SPL meter has a mic output, which is probably suitable for dorking around.... :yes:
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
Not exactly sure what you mean by what type of display, but this basically what
it looks like as I found some pic's of a lessar model, the one I have if I remember
right had a button you could push that did some kinda testing that ran for a bit,
or you could just turn on the generator an let run while you watched the screen.
You would adjust the output level with your amp till you got the display to be high
enough to show well on the meter screen. You had to put a bit of juice to speakers.
Mine has the Yamaha supplied mic.
it looks like as I found some pic's of a lessar model, the one I have if I remember
right had a button you could push that did some kinda testing that ran for a bit,
or you could just turn on the generator an let run while you watched the screen.
You would adjust the output level with your amp till you got the display to be high
enough to show well on the meter screen. You had to put a bit of juice to speakers.
Mine has the Yamaha supplied mic.
Attachments
That's a full-octave resolution display and EQ; not very useful, as each bar is ~1 octave wide.
Read up again here:
http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/resolution2.html
Read up again here:
http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/resolution2.html
Kegger
R.I.P. 1/12/1966 - 6/1/2017
Gotcha, about the only thing it would be good for was if the speaker was pretty flat
across the whole thing an if it was accurate then you could feel pretty decent about
the speaker you were measuring.
You might be able to do some basic xover testing for a single driver to get a feel where
the xover point is, might be a crude way to test woofer xover to see where the woofer
is dropping off at the top end.
across the whole thing an if it was accurate then you could feel pretty decent about
the speaker you were measuring.
You might be able to do some basic xover testing for a single driver to get a feel where
the xover point is, might be a crude way to test woofer xover to see where the woofer
is dropping off at the top end.
Wayne Parham
Active Member
Microphone preamp with phantom power
Here's a schematic for the microphone preamp I use with Panasonic mic capsules and Speaker Workshop.
You can get the WM60 mic capsules from Digi-Key for just a few bucks. They're so cheap it only makes sense to buy them ten at a time. The rest of the parts only cost pennies too, and takes little time to solder it up. Power it with a couple AA batteries.
I like to make a boom from the plastic tubing used for plumbing the supply line for toilets. You can press the capsule in the end and it make a nice little boom mic. All done on the cheap, and works great.
The thing I find most tweaky about Speaker Workshop is not actually the software, but the input and output gain settings on the sound card. Use some kind of media software to monitor the inputs and outputs to make sure you aren't clipping. Once the levels are set, Speaker Workshop works pretty well.
Don't forget about Keith Larson's measurement systems either. It's easier to use, probably more consistent and best of all, you'll have the designer's ear when you buy it. Check out his resume, he's the real deal.
Here's a schematic for the microphone preamp I use with Panasonic mic capsules and Speaker Workshop.
You can get the WM60 mic capsules from Digi-Key for just a few bucks. They're so cheap it only makes sense to buy them ten at a time. The rest of the parts only cost pennies too, and takes little time to solder it up. Power it with a couple AA batteries.
I like to make a boom from the plastic tubing used for plumbing the supply line for toilets. You can press the capsule in the end and it make a nice little boom mic. All done on the cheap, and works great.
The thing I find most tweaky about Speaker Workshop is not actually the software, but the input and output gain settings on the sound card. Use some kind of media software to monitor the inputs and outputs to make sure you aren't clipping. Once the levels are set, Speaker Workshop works pretty well.
Don't forget about Keith Larson's measurement systems either. It's easier to use, probably more consistent and best of all, you'll have the designer's ear when you buy it. Check out his resume, he's the real deal.
I've been listening to my Electrovoice conversion EWG's for two days now. There's some kind of magic coming from those cheap plastic wave things. I consider myself a horn speaker guy and have been through many iterations of Altec, Klipsch, and other horns. These are very special. I can't put it into words very well but, I really like what I'm hearing.
I have no regrets gutting the old Electrovoice components out of the cabs. Seeing those old cabinets again (from the 70's) makes me want to hook them up to my old Marantz 2230 receiver, put on Dark Side of the Moon, and light up a big fatty.
Well, maybe a cigar instead of a big fatty.
Is there a "not so Economy" version for this waveguide? Maybe a BMS driver, JBL 2226 and premium crossover components? Would we need a new crossover for a BMS driver?
I have no regrets gutting the old Electrovoice components out of the cabs. Seeing those old cabinets again (from the 70's) makes me want to hook them up to my old Marantz 2230 receiver, put on Dark Side of the Moon, and light up a big fatty.
Well, maybe a cigar instead of a big fatty.
Is there a "not so Economy" version for this waveguide? Maybe a BMS driver, JBL 2226 and premium crossover components? Would we need a new crossover for a BMS driver?
Russellc
Addicted Member
I'm using JBL 2225H in JBL 4647 boxes with econowave on top. Have a spare set of 2225H that are someday going to be reconed to 2235H and then I'll use them. With the 2225H installed, these things really rock. It is amazing exactly how good these sound.
Its funny to watch all those who have come on board with this project, a little doubt, but curiosity and low price cause them to try the water. results are so good they go for the crossover and parts to do a pair, then the excited response. Yes its cheap and sounds real good.
If I had the equipment, Id like to redo the crossover to work with jbl 2425H just to have an all jbl econowave. Dont know if it would sound any better though! The BMS is said to be a step up by those who know. Does require an entirely different crossover, compensation, and a tank filter to remove a pesky spike, which is shown in many other threads both here as well as LH forums as well.
Aparently one of the best non econowaves according to Zilch is the 2235H combined with JBL's newer neodium drivers like 2435 and 2452 I believe. These drivers are definately NOT econo by any stretch of the imagination, or I would have a pair!
Zilch can direct you to it I'm sure, I have it at home somewhere but am at work right now.
Enjoy
Russellc
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
Regarding the waveguides themselves, has anyone found a need to damp the horn physically? They're rather thin material and have a distinctive sound when tapped. I wonder if putty would deaden any resonances in the horn body or if it's not worth the trouble.
I haven't tackled mine yet. I need to refoam the woofers (note to self: order foam TODAY), plus I have a pile of tube amp repairs to work through and a metric gruntload of heavy speakers to pack and ship this week.
I haven't tackled mine yet. I need to refoam the woofers (note to self: order foam TODAY), plus I have a pile of tube amp repairs to work through and a metric gruntload of heavy speakers to pack and ship this week.
Russellc
Addicted Member
This has been covered in the thread, Zilch tried it, he said it sounded different when tapped on, but no sound improvement was had.
Russellc
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
Thanx. I probably skipped a third of the pages here that appeared to be primarily tangential but I think I've hit most of the substantive parts of this epic thread.