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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Bauhausler said:
A25 baffle is at least an inch too narrow for the horn, so tht would have to be an 'outboard' application.
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Heads UP:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2325827#post2325827

I believe that's what Kegger is showing at #3107.

For "Mini-E'Waves," there's also the 6" square and 8" square JBL PT waveguides Jackgiff is using in his new HT.

Skywave just showed the 8" version in his class monitors photo.

The "Mini" movement has been going on a while here; as soon as the crossovers are certified, they'll become "Official" E'Waves.... :yes:


KCM said:
I had read enough of this thread, and yours on the Advent conversion, that I knew they wouldn't fit the NLA without undercutting. Mine are too nice to "modify" in that fashion, though :no:
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The undercut is shallow, and the mod all but invisible. The real commitment is to cutting in the waveguide; you already know the performance benefit.... :thmbsp:
 
I have a pair of Heathkit AS-48 (Lancer-99 clone) speakers with dead tweeters, and they are starting to look like a pretty good E'wave project to me. What do you think about using JBL 2412 drivers rather than the Selenium units?
 
Zilch said:
For "Mini-E'Waves," there's also the 6" square and 8" square JBL PT waveguides Jackgiff is using in his new HT.
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Not to forget the 7" http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=270-316

270-316_s.jpg

Featured in the ZLH-17.
 
skywave-rider said:
How do you like them so far?
I have not hooked up my 18 Sounds to the E'Wave crossover yet, but they sound pretty good. I'll post RTA.
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I'm gunna hold my reservations on there sound at the moment.
Just 1 speaker hooked up and certainly not an optimized xover.
(no measurements of yet, and I don't like the high xover point I'm using)

I'm using a PartsExpress blowout xover ($2.00 each) which uses roughly a 4k xover point.
I put the xover in sim to check it out, calculated what I thought would be a decent L-Pad
value of 14db hard wired resistive and added that to the speaker leads, ran the sim to see
what cap value I thought looked good and how the gains worked.

Funny is it turned out to be Jacks low output xover with 30ohm and 15ohm with .47uf cap :)
The output balance between woofer and horn seems pretty darn close (no adjustable L-Pad)

I figured the HPM woofer was at 94db, the XD-120 at 108 so 14db of padding I felt might be
pretty close, looked at Waynes pad post info, then used parts I had on hand. (yah I guessed)

Would love to see some of your measurements, if you had the values I used for compensation
would be extremely helpful to me (maybe others ?) and appreciated if you were to run them, :)


---------------
For others asking, it's an HPM 60 using the $20.00 each 18sound XD-120 driver/guide.
 
tarior said:
I have a pair of Heathkit AS-48 (Lancer-99 clone) speakers with dead tweeters, and they are starting to look like a pretty good E'wave project to me. What do you think about using JBL 2412 drivers rather than the Selenium units?
Click to expand...
I have "Done" Lancer 99s; that work (on LHF) predates E'Wave, actually, but they have reappeared here, converted to towers.

I have no experience with 2412, but it's an interesting entry-level driver. SR guys blow them up all the time, but they may be quite suitable for home use. I believe they're 035Tia diaphragms repackaged as a compression driver.

Interestingly, SR guys often replace them with Seleniums, but know zip about the likely necessity to update the HF comp, as well. :dunno:
 
Robh3606 said:
Hello Zilch



Thanks for the link. Well definately a different animal compared to either Aquaplas or Mass Coat Delta Db http://www.mascoat.com/db.php?PHPSESSID=f029b837c06d013a249ce23a29af68f0. Both are essentaily water based and dry hard. The Delta Db works really well with aluminum horns. Put on a couple of coats and it takes the ring out of them. How do they actually sound??

Rob:)
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Hi Rob,

Thanks for the link to the Mass Coat product. I remember a thread on the LH site where everyone was excited to Aquaplas their horns and diaphragms, but the buy in was a little high due to the packaging of the Aquaplas. 55 gallon bucket, as I remember. Even with Mass Coat, the smallest package is 5 gallons. I didn't check the price yet, but assume that it plus delivery will be a pretty big number.

I was trying to find a way to do the same thing that would fit the Econo part of Econowaves. Did you ever find a low cost source of Aquaplas or similar product? I absolutely hate to try to find an answer using the search function on either of the forum sites.

I sent a request for delivered price for a 5 gallon pail of dB Sound Dampening product, and maybe if anyone is interested in trying it, we could split up the bucket by repackaging it into smaller containers, and share the costs.
 
Zilch said:
I have "Done" Lancer 99s; that work (on LHF) predates E'Wave, actually, but they have reappeared here, converted to towers.

I have no experience with 2412, but it's an interesting entry-level driver. SR guys blow them up all the time, but they may be quite suitable for home use. I believed they're 035Tia diaphragms repackaged as a compression driver.

Interestingly, SR guys often replace them with Seleniums, but know zip about the likely necessity to update the HF comp, as well. :dunno:
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Does that mean that I'm gonna have to do some math?:D
I haven't done x-over math in years. Maybe I'll download a x-over program.
 
tarior said:
Does that mean that I'm gonna have to do some math?:D I haven't done x-over math in years. Maybe I'll download a x-over program.
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I do it the hard way: measure and tweak, remeasure and retweak, AKA "Successive approximation."

[Of what is forever unclear.... ;) ]
 
Zilch said:
I do it the hard way: measure and tweak, remeasure and retweak, AKA "Successive approximation."

[Of what is forever unclear.... ;) ]
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I've been procrastinating on the purchase of an RTA for about 10 years now. Maybe I'd better find my speaker design books and calculator.:scratch2: Now, I wonder if anybody has measured 2412s on that PT horn?
 
I'm not springing for a pair, but I'll see if I can borrow some.

Otherwise, you may want to send them down here for measurement.... :yes:
 
Well, there is a pair of 2404H for sale near me on CL, but I'm not so sure that the LE-14A will match up with those.
 
Right path, maybe. Wrong product, definitely.

To compare the QuitePlased diaphragm against an untreated one, I got down the EconoBaronets. They were built with D210Tis, so the waveguides were pulled and D220Ti's were substituted, the one on the left having the treated diaphragm.

The idea is correct, but the product is wrong. With an untreated diaphragm, when a brush hits the cymbals, you can almost tell how many bristles the brush has. Some (actually lots) of that detail is lost with the treated diaphragm. You can still tell it is a brush, not a club, but it just isn't the same. And the compensation to get it back close to flat was a bit more than doubling the standard compensation.

This product stays quite flexible, and apparently only adds mass to the cone. The roughly 5 dB loss documented in the FR's of post #3097 is apparently real. The L-Pad on the treated side had to be turned up to the max to get the same HF level.

If Aquaplas only costs 1 dB, and sets to be quite hard, we need to keep looking. It doesn't seem possible that the titanium diaphragm is more flexible than the BMS's mylar, but that is what the results indicate. Go fish!
 

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I wonder if the high freq extension on the seleniums rely on resonances to acheive their HF extension and if the damping material effectively kills that?
 
dnewma04 said:
I wonder if the high freq extension on the seleniums rely on resonances to acheive their HF extension and if the damping material effectively kills that?
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Though the 3" JBL berylliums may be pistonic out to 18 kHz, the titaniums almost certainly aren't. The VHF is alleged to come from the diamond surround, but that get's Aquaplas'd, too, as I recall, or at least part of it does.... :dunno:
 
I thought about masking off the dimpled surrounds of the diaphragms, but recalled seeing a picture of the large JBL diaphragms, and as my memory serves, the entire area was Aquaplased, even the diamond surrounds. So I just shot the entire diaphragms, including the surrounds on the Seleniums. The mounting surfaces were masked off, of course.

This product stays pretty flexible. A piece of paper was shot on both sides, and after drying, the treated paper still seems as flexible as the untreated area. Plus the control nozzle is a digital device. It is on or off. All or nothing. 1 or 0. And since it is designed for shooting the bottom sides of automobiles, it gushes goo when the nozzle is depressed.

A fun experiment, and a lesson learned. And it wasn't even expensive. In keeping with this thread, it was Econo. :thmbsp:
 
I know this is a little off topic, but I have JBL 2441 drivers and am using the Radian diaphragm that has the mylar surrounds. I like them a whole bunch better than the origanal JBL diaphragms.
 
Bauhausler said:
Regarding the Advent crossover, I have some experience with the Utility version from my conversion. I found that the woofer choke in my stock crossovers measured around 1.5 - 1.6 mh, right in the ballpark for the low sensitivity woofer lowpass for Econowaves. In the crossovers that I have there was no cap across the woofer, so the rolloff was first order. For a cheap approximation of the 'real' econowave crossover, pull the woofer and clip a NP cap of 10 - 15 uf (12uf is the specified value) across the terminals. I think you'll be within a few percent of the correct slope.
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1.6 mH, 0.28 Ohms, per Pete's documentation of them:

http://baselaudiolabs.googlepages.com/ADVENT_LA_XO.html

NLA uses 0.3 mH, 0.37 Ohms; not gonna work with those, but the Bauhausler has herewith knocked ~$20 off the cost of E'Waving OLAs.... :thmbsp:
 
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