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Two-way speaker system, WAY horn-loaded

This is what I'm talking about in the post just above:

(photos left out)

Plenty of evidence that Paul C is right, that the right damping of a transmission line will reduce the problem of impedance-mismatch reflections causing cancellations/throat impedance variations/lousy FR response, but that's just one special case that can be managed in a certain frequency range. I don't think that is an adequate solution for these problems below say 80 hertz in exponential horns...


The damping I was suggesting was to kill the higher in phase/out of phase response variations that result from the direct radiation of the driver reinforcing or cancelling the radiation from the mouth of the horn or transmission line, rather than reflections and other funnies that happen only inside the horn.

The damping material acts as a low pass filter, that is, allowing the bass frequencies under 80 hz - 100 hz to pass through with little if any effect, while effectivily killing the higher frequencies. So, in the upper bass to midrange, only the direct radiation of the driver is heard. In the bass frequencies, only the region that is reinforced, that is, where the direct radiation of the driver, and the backwave coming through the horn, where those are both in phase, are not affected. There, the bass is reinforced where it would normally be falling off.

This is sort of the same effect as a port, but over a wider range of frequencies.

And a rear loaded (as opposed to a normal front loaded horn) can be more closely compared to a transmission line design, but the line is a horn.

Now, here's the cool thing... unlike cutting and gluing a wood cabinet, that once it is made, you either use it or discard it and start over, damping can be added AND removed. It can be adjusted easily and quickly, and relatively cheaply. This is strictly a "try and see", like adding seasoning. You are the judge.

And your room response would also affect the overall sound, so for a particular rear loaded horn or transmission line, one can't say, "Put X cubic feet of dacron fiberfill right here." What may be good in one room might not be so good in another. Or you may want boomier bass, if a fan of Rap, Hip-Hop, R&B, etc. Or damp the line more for a more natural sound for listening to real music. :D
 
"That is why I say that it is unfortunately not practical to completely eradicate the reflection problem for BASS horns. Firing into a corner Klipsch-style, though can really help out with the load/impedance matching…"

With a corner horn, the room boundaries, that is, floor, walls, and ceiling, are actually part of the horn, and the horn extends out into the room.

Sure, that's what I meant. But making the horn longer with a larger mouth that way has a direct benefit in smoothing the impedance matching, = lessening the reflections back into the horn, = a smoother load and smoother frequency response. I'm not saying it's PERFECT, but it helps a lot.
 
February 2009 Update

I had to put the project on hold for a bit, then progressed a little, then back on hold while we tore down our crumbling garage, pulled out the foundation, replaced the sewer pipes underneath, elevated the site a LOT with ~65 tons of sand for drainage, and had a foundation made, built a 2-car garage with upstairs, had slab poured...

Now I'm dinking around again. I made crossovers:

446591273_sVHFV-L.jpg


Finally got the Bruce Edgar 500 hz horns and tried them with JBL 2441's on top of the Imperial cabinets. Very good, but on top of the cabinet is too high!

SIDEBAR: Took the horns to a friend's house and tried them with Great Plains 399 drivers on top of JBL 2226 -- GREAT! I could see designing and building a speaker cab around this two-way, and having something not ENORMOUS, but really first-rate.

Then the new garage workshop was finally available, so I could start cutting wood. Made baffle boards to use constant directivity horns with the 2441s:

453347869_PeBqa-L.jpg


Here they are mounted right UNDER the woofer, which puts them at a good height all around:

453348669_h96FH-L.jpg


Next I'll use the same location on the speaker to mount the Edgarhorns. Here's what I managed with the Jasper circle jig and plunge router.

453348183_hTp4K-L.jpg
 
Crossover switchout

I first put some 22uF motorstart caps in parallel, but Ron pointed out some reasons (probably high ESR) to suspect they were going to be lousy here. I dug around and found something better.

471270244_hPRJC-L.jpg


471270266_FeKPq-L.jpg


Heading downstairs now to hear this setup. EDIT -- forgot to mention that the crossover point is 800hz.
 
I had a chance to listen again today.

  • I think the CD horns are really a pretty good match for the kind of big soundfield the rest of the speaker produces.
  • I think the crossovers are still breaking in.
  • I think the deHavilland preamp really does sound better when it has been playing for a couple of hours.
  • I think the 2441's -- heavily used in PA -- are probably not 100% perfect. It would be interesting to try some other drivers in their place.

The cabinets are over 36" wide... I bet there is a wider waveguide from JBL that would still not be too tall to fit in that space. Hmmmm....
 
Rick,

As we discussed previously with the WT3 specs on the 2441's that they may need some help to perform better. Remagnetizing and or cleaning out the gaps/etc....

For a 3-way the 2441's would work very well, for a 2-way system I would go with the Great Plains 399 drivers. You already know how they sound after listening to Brad's.

Great thread BTW!!!

Regards, Ron
 
Yeah well, after a while I come around to seeing that you're right. But sometimes I need to hear it for myself! It may take 6 months though.

I wonder though about the crossover point with the 399's. I've only heard them with xover at 1600. Maybe 1200 would be a good compromise with them for a 2-way? Maybe I can talk Brad into coming over with them to try in my system -- he can leave the Edgars attached! And if he brought over the crossovers you built for him... shouldn't be too much of a stretch to learn something.

With my current crossover at 800, the 2441s are doing a lot for HF drivers, and sounding good. Ultimately it would be okay by me to have a tweeter to extend past what the 2441's can do, but I'd like to get it dialed in before adding anything. Once I take the casters off the cabinets, the height wouldn't be too crazy for a tweeter on top. I imagine it coming in pretty high, just that sparkling icing on the cake. I'm not MISSING it now, but heard what I was missign at Brad's...

I am playing music there right now. I'm playing a well-engineered (but too hot) CD by Issa Bagayoyo, same one I listened to yesterday with the Tannoy GRF-R's. Amplification chain is comparable, source is better on the Imperial setup, but the difference is so BIG, I KNOW it's the speakers rather than the source. BIG, effortless and involving is what makes the Imperials worth the hassle. I happened to see the Ratshack meter, and measured 100db peaks at the horn mouth, as well as at ~6 inches from the floor at the listening spot -- and it's so clean it doesn't seem LOUD loud.
 
With the Jensen Imperials and 399 driver, you could use a 800hz crossover depending on your choice of horn.

The real question is how high does the Jensen Imperial reach up to cleanly???

1200hz crossover or 1600hz crossover might be a stretch for the Imperials.

800hz crossover would work nicely with CD/Edgarhorn for use with less than 10 wpc.

2nd order low pass and 3rd order high pass with att/eq circuit would work fine at 800hz.

Regards, Ron
 
Hey Tubino, I have the Jensen Imperials and they go down to 16hz. I have the Edgarhorn as well with the JBL 2441 and Radian diaphragm. Also have the Big Ass heil driver for a super tweet. I am using the Behringer CD3400 active crossover. It is great to be able to play with the xover freqs and it cost less then building a GOOD crossover. You should stop by sometime. I am 1 hour north of you. Cheers.
 
Hey Tubino, I have the Jensen Imperials and they go down to 16hz.

Hi Dennis! Wish I could have made it to your place for the get-together... but it wasn't possible.

Are you sure we have the same cabinets? About 5 feet tall, 3 feet wide, 2 feet deep? I didn't think yours looked like this, but mine do:

28221349_Sp3Zw-L.jpg


212422188_wczNj-L.jpg
 
Here you can see where the compression driver and horn fit, in the yellow spots. It's a separate sealed chamber under the 15". The original plans suggested the crossover goes there (when using the Jensen 610G triax). There is actually a lot of space in there, with enough room for the 2441 and a lot more.

471953336_zajXd-X3.jpg
 
There were two styles of the cab. One like yours and one like mine. Your cab was designed to be built into a wall and mine was ment to be placed into a corner. Same dimentions though as far as the horn is concerned. Any time you want to stop by is fine with me. I think you will be surprised at how mine sound. Cheeers.
 
Dennis, under about 50 hz in your room, it's not going to be hornloading. You effectively have a direct radiator and at 16hz it's output would be considerably lower. Not that us mere mortals can hear that low anyway. :D
 
I'm not sure I understand Dave. The driver I am using rolls off at 50hz or so and the horn section bring every thing under 50hz back up to level with the rest of the signals so I am assuming that the horn is effective. It sound A LOT better than the last time you were here. Real solid bass down to 20hz and good bass down to 16hz. If I turn it up a bit, the 10hz signal is there.
 
There were two styles of the cab. One like yours and one like mine. Your cab was designed to be built into a wall and mine was ment to be placed into a corner. Same dimentions though as far as the horn is concerned. Any time you want to stop by is fine with me. I think you will be surprised at how mine sound. Cheeers.

I'd really like to hear yours! What shape is the horn MOUTH on yours? Is it a vertical along each wall, or across the bottom? I think I've seen a pair in a guy's basement once, not in use, and they may have been upside down. But you think the actual horn length is comparable?

According to the 1952 plans, mine was designed to build in a wall or use free-standing. It would be interesting to compare how the corner loading affects performance vs. mine just dumping into the room, but I'm not complaining about bass drop-off with mine. What driver/specs are you using in yours? It isn't likely we'll ever be able to compare them in the same room!

I have a pretty good-sized basement, but I think mine would be still happier with still more room. Maybe in the next house...

I have lost my Bass test cd to see what's happening at 20 hz and below, but I guess I'll download some sinewaves and burn to CD. What I think is happening, though, is that I am probably a few DB TOO HIGH at some frequencies in the 30s. I suspect I've got some anomalies there that are noticeable with some techno and dub stuff, where bass notes that are close in frequency seem to have different amplitude. In other words, some notes are louder than others, when they are probably the same on the source. Unless I'm playing it pretty loud, it doesn't much matter.
 
Tubino, The corner version was designed first, then a year or so later Jensen designed the inwall version with the same geometry....so I understand. Mine are pulled out from the wall by a foot on either side just to reduce boom at 50hz. Mine are sitting with the woof up high and the mouth on the floor. That is the way the origanal was to be used with the 610. I do have some dips and peaks but it is not too bad. I am using the JBL 136A driver which is perfect for that cab. You should talk to Steve at Decware. He is the expert on the Imps and has made some mods that you might be interested in exploring. The first thing he will tell you is the open up the back chamber of the woofer to the sealed chamber down below. This is the first thing I did and it made a night and day difference. I have time on my hands if you want to come up. Cheers.
 
You should talk to Steve at Decware. He is the expert on the Imps and has made some mods that you might be interested in exploring. The first thing he will tell you is the open up the back chamber of the woofer to the sealed chamber down below.

I hung out for a while on the Decware forum, and posted messages about mine, asked questions, sent Steve messages... I couldn't get a response to save my life. Check out the posts there by tubino to see what I mean: SILENCE.

I am not so sure about increasing the size of the compression chamber. What DOES make some sense to me is that the throat might be a bit too large for some drivers. (I posted the numbers about this earlier in this thread.) Even on the Decware forum there seem to be a number of reports of people having trouble finding drivers that properly load in Steve's cabinet, and I wonder if it is this chamber mod or the throat size that causes that?

When I tried some JBL instrument speakers in mine, it was clear to me in a few seconds that they weren't loading right. But when people haven't heard it loaded right... they are in doubt.

What did you hear when you did this mod? Do you have any cutaway drawings of the original cabs?
 
Hey T, cutting away the divider board between chambers is night and day. I have only done one but plan on doing the other tonight. The one without the mod only really goes down to 50hz or so and is not very strong. The one with the mod goes down to 20 or so very strong. I dont know about the throat mod but I have thought about it. At this point, I don't want to change anything. You are welcome to come up and help me with cutting the other speaker tonight or I can wait until you are available. That will give you a better idea of the difference by hearing both ways before modding it.

I've had the same experience with the Decware board. The best thing to do is to call Steve direct. He is a good good guy. there are not many drivers that will work in this cab but even Steve thinks the 136 might be the one.
 
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