Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Im hooked, and want to start on another set. So far I have a set of 2225H and was wondering what size cabinet would be ideal for these woofers. Im probably gonna upgrade the tweeters from the seleniums to ? but that and the crossovers will have to be decided after cabinets are finished and veneered. So what do you gurus think would be a perfect cabinet for these two 2225H. By the way i changed out the Eminence woofers I used in the first set today to JBL 126As and the different is like night and day. The base is extradinory and the mids are so much clearer. Now i gotta find another set of 126A for my Jubals but they have been sitting for a couple months so I guess a few more wont hurt.

I can certainly tell you that the 4507 box works very well with all 4 ports open.
Iwould copy this box down to the last detail, including thr 4 ports. It will allow tuning for, among other things, plugging 1 or 2 if you recone to or obtain 2235H.
Alternativly, Wayne over on the Pi site uses an alignment for 2226H that should work with 2225H. They are also tuned to 40 hz, but the Pi alignment uses a smaller box. Havent tried that yet, but the 4507/4647 box is smashingly good! If you search my posts in this thread you can see my project using this box, both < and> 95 db crossovers, both 2225H as well as 2235H, the waveguide and HF drivers both 220Ti Selenium and JBL 2425H, which is really sounding good on the < 95 db version and JBL 2235H.

Russellc
 
Skywave,

Construction adhesive is probably referring to "Liquid Nails" or a similar product. Much different than wood glue.
 
Construction adhesive is probably referring to "Liquid Nails" or a similar product. Much different than wood glue.
Yes, "Solvent elastomeric adhesive" also available in heavy duty and polyurethane formulations:

http://www.duspec.com/DuSpec2/produ...=70&productCode=LN-940&documentType=datasheet

With Elmer's or similar wood glue, you'd have to counterbore the T-nuts and be "spot on" the brace length. Construction adhesive is a different material with "substance" that will fill gaps and voids. It comes in tubes, like caulk. Epoxy'd work nicely, too, for this.

Yes, you could make the length adjustable, and there are cool and clever ways to do that, but the KISS factor prevails in the approach I've shown.

Note: The correct designation in the Simpson catalog for the Gusset Angles I've used is "GA2." Don't be put off by their appearance; they're 18 gauge galvanized steel, not aluminum, including the smaller GA1. As Hhibrownsbac said above, once installed, they're "Goin' nowhere...." :thmbsp:
 
PE reduces price on 2226H

Alternativly, Wayne over on the Pi site uses an alignment for 2226H that should work with 2225H.

I just rec'd the parts for the Wayne/Pi alignment for 2226 -- I'm modifying for 16 ohm J version. I was listening to it yesterday with the simple first-order and wood tractrix on top, and DAMN it's coming along. I'm eager to hear what a better crossover can do! A friend of mine is using the Wayne/Pi xover with his 2226, but I haven't heard it yet... I'm rather fortunate to be so free of room effects... I'm on the second floor workshop of my garage, and the OSB floor and sheathing and shingles and siding seem to be more transparent than reflective, at least for all but HF... and that's a good thing!

Parts Express reduced their price on NOS 2226H to $309 ea. It ain't cheap, but then again you can build a first-class system around that driver, with the EWG route something useable now, and upgrade to a 1.4" or 2" driver solution later.
 
I can certainly tell you that the 4507 box works very well with all 4 ports open.
Iwould copy this box down to the last detail, including thr 4 ports. It will allow tuning for, among other things, plugging 1 or 2 if you recone to or obtain 2235H.
Alternativly, Wayne over on the Pi site uses an alignment for 2226H that should work with 2225H. They are also tuned to 40 hz, but the Pi alignment uses a smaller box. Havent tried that yet, but the 4507/4647 box is smashingly good! If you search my posts in this thread you can see my project using this box, both < and> 95 db crossovers, both 2225H as well as 2235H, the waveguide and HF drivers both 220Ti Selenium and JBL 2425H, which is really sounding good on the < 95 db version and JBL 2235H.

Russellc
thanks for all the replys, im sort of stuck with the 2225h since i already have them but they should definitely do the job. Im gonna take your advise and copy the 4507 cabinets. im still searching the thread for hints on which HF driver to use, I'm sort of leaning towards the 2425/6h, but Im not really sure yet, the seleniums are definitely cheaper but i wonder if they can compete with the 2425/6 or possibly BMS 4552. My main concern is the cabinets at this point because I want them to be perfect so Ive been searching everywhere to get the exact measurements and layouts, plus they have to look store bought as these are going to be kept, so these are gonna take some time to get cut, veneered, assembled, sanded, stained a few times, and tung oiled 4 or 5 times, plus what ever else I can think of. Once that is done i can concentrate on which crossover to use and find the HF drivers that will match up with everything the best. :thmbsp:
 
I have a couple of extra PT waveguides I ordered. Any thoughts on using these as an Ewave candidate? Plug the tweeter cutout, add JBL PT waveguide, and a couple of ports up top. I'd like to make some rear speakers that match with the mains up front.
 

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Looks like a slam dunk to me, then, with the waveguide going where the tweeter is.

Try it first with the cab upside-down, E'Wave on top, and the crossover driving just the woofer. If that all works, break out the tools.... :thmbsp:
 
I just rec'd the parts for the Wayne/Pi alignment for 2226 -- I'm modifying for 16 ohm J version. I was listening to it yesterday with the simple first-order and wood tractrix on top, and DAMN it's coming along. I'm eager to hear what a better crossover can do! A friend of mine is using the Wayne/Pi xover with his 2226, but I haven't heard it yet... I'm rather fortunate to be so free of room effects... I'm on the second floor workshop of my garage, and the OSB floor and sheathing and shingles and siding seem to be more transparent than reflective, at least for all but HF... and that's a good thing!

Parts Express reduced their price on NOS 2226H to $309 ea. It ain't cheap, but then again you can build a first-class system around that driver, with the EWG route something useable now, and upgrade to a 1.4" or 2" driver solution later.

Very good plan. Conversly, for the same money, one could obtain a couple of tired 2225H and recone to 2235H for about the same money, or maybe a little less. The recone for two drivers is a little over 400 last time I did it. The 2226H in the Pi alignment is something I would like to hear. Some time ago, I purchased drivers for the 7 Pi 3 way horn but have yet to do it. I'm more likely to put the mid horn and tweeter on top of a "cornerless" box like econowave or 4 PI pro.

Russellc
 
Will you use the h-290 horn?

I have a set of those horns I bought when I got the 7Pi parts collected up.
They are quite a bit deeper than the JBL "Econowave" and heavier as well.
I think they are around 44 bucks apiece, a little more expensive than Econowave. I dont think its CD, but "Bi radial" I believe, and I dont know the difference. I'm trying it with Econowave and JBL 2425H at the moment.:yes:

EDIT: Apparently not a Bi-radial horn, read on...

Russellc
 
Hey Russel, cool.
Little OT, but I have those too. I like them, in use with BMS 4552 and Z-19 x-o.:thmbsp:
I'm gonna put my 4Pi x-o on it when I get a chance.
Are you still building the 7Pi?
I find the compensation requirements to be different compared to the E'Wave guide.
 
Hey Russel, cool.
Little OT, but I have those too. I like them, in use with BMS 4552 and Z-19 x-o.:thmbsp:
I'm gonna put my 4Pi x-o on it when I get a chance.
Are you still building the 7Pi?
I find the compensation requirements to be different compared to the E'Wave guide.

I just stuck it on the < 95 db crossover. How do you have it compensated as compared to the JBL waveguide? I find the imaging to be slightly different, I suppose this is a CD vs Biradial deal? The center image doesnt hold up quite as good at extreme off center axis, and strangly seems to shift to the farther speaker instead of the closer one. Sweet spot doesnt seem quite as wide, either, but is plenty wide. They seem to work well towed in or flat against the wall. Anyone venture a guess as to the imaging differences and whether or not its a CD vs Biradial thing. Remember, I'm the guy who listened to his L-p pad hooked up backwards!:yes:

Russellc
 
Very good plan. Conversly, for the same money, one could obtain a couple of tired 2225H and recone to 2235H for about the same money, or maybe a little less. The recone for two drivers is a little over 400 last time I did it. The 2226H in the Pi alignment is something I would like to hear.

The 2226 is NOT the last word in deep bass, but it sounds REALLY good where it really matters, IMO, and keeps sounding good till HF kicks in at 1200 or even 1600 hz. For a two-way, that's a very good reason to go with the 2226! That's why I thought it worth mentioning in this thread, even if a pair of used ones are likely to cost a few hundred. I like making stuff cheap, but I also like getting it RIGHT when I can, and just KEEPING it.
 
I believe you're right, the H-290 is bi-radial, I think....
EDIT: The H-290 is a RADIAL horn.
I'll locate that Peavey paper on the subject....
Oh, here it is:
aa.peavey.com/downloads/pdf/qwp1.pdf
As provided by Zilch.

As far as the compensation goes, I have both of my E'Wave x-overs installed in different loactions, not here, so I can no longer easily measure and compare. I can get an extra set of standard E'Wave guides here, and will do to contrast imaging.

IMHOP the H-290 sounds very good, been using it at home for a while.

If I could afford 2226s, I'd be 4Pi! (Already have the x-0vers.)
Oh, probably can't fit them in here anyway.:sigh:



I just stuck it on the < 95 db crossover. How do you have it compensated as compared to the JBL waveguide? I find the imaging to be slightly different, I suppose this is a CD vs Biradial deal? The center image doesnt hold up quite as good at extreme off center axis, and strangly seems to shift to the farther speaker instead of the closer one. Sweet spot doesnt seem quite as wide, either, but is plenty wide. They seem to work well towed in or flat against the wall. Anyone venture a guess as to the imaging differences and whether or not its a CD vs Biradial thing. Remember, I'm the guy who listened to his L-p pad hooked up backwards!:yes:

Russellc
 
H290

The Eminence H290 horn is labeled as a radial horn, not BiRadial. Big difference - For one thing, BiRadials have a diffraction slot and the H290 doesn't and for another thing, BiRadial is a JBL trademark. Radial horns have constant directivity in the horizontal plane. Directivity is not constant in the vertical, but that's harder to do anyway. I'm not sure it makes sense to say any horn with aspect ratio like this has constant directivity in the vertical plane, and when the off-axis nulls are considered, doubly so.

The bottom liine for me is how the horns behave. As you can see in the off-axis charts at the link below, the H290 is pretty uniform off-axis.

I've seen plenty of waveguides with more off-axis rolloff than the H290. The 90x50 waveguide you guys are using here looks pretty good to me, actually looks very similar to the H290 from the charts I've seen. As long as the crossover is adjusted so summing is right through the crossover region and placing vertical nulls outside the pattern at HF, I expect performance to be similar. But I've seen some waveguides with more off-axis rolloff than horns that are designed for collapsing directivity. A device like that is CD or waveguide in name only.

My conclusion: Don't get hung up on the name, look at the polars.
 
If I could afford 2226s, I'd be 4Pi! (Already have the x-0vers.)
Oh, probably can't fit them in here anyway.:sigh:

There are a LOT LOT LOT of 2226 drivers out there in pro sound land, and so they are available for sale through a LOT LOT LOT of venues. If you're patient and know when to jump, I'm sure you can get a pair for a few trips to the bone marrow & plasma donation places. :yes: That's how I used to afford luxuries as a student.

And they don't need a huge cabinet -- the JBL 3677 is big enough.
 
My conclusion: Don't get hung up on the name, look at the polars.
Thank you, Wayne!

I was going to look up the specs, but your measurements of actual performance tell us more.... :thmbsp:


There are a LOT LOT LOT of 2226 drivers out there in pro sound land, and so they are available for sale through a LOT LOT LOT of venues.
I was lookin' these up for max SPL in another thread:

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3&docid=660

Check out the woofer.... ;)
 
No problem Zilch. Good to see you guys.

Ever since I've started watching this thread, I sort of considered the PT-F95 90x50 waveguide to be a compatible horn, one that I would probably use today if I were looking. It's a step up from the 2370, which could sound kind of harsh and splashy, because of sharp edges that cause discontinuities, ultimately creating internal reflections. These show up in the response curve and make the horn sound a little bit harsh. I always liked constant directivity, but not enough to sacrifice sound quality in that way. So to me, a good radial horn was always the best solution. It's the original "waveguide".

The H290 does not have any sharp edges in the throat or along the walls. It is pretty good at making directivity uniform, so it's a good horn for my purposes. I think the same could be said of the PT-F95.

When I was designing my wood horn, I spoke with Geddes at some length and was considering making an elliptical horn. That would be great too. But in the end, I chose a CD shape for the side flares only. They are mostly straight, with the throat radiused from the entry angle, like a quadratic or OS. The top and bottom flares aren't CD and do develop some collapsing DI. The mouth is smoothly radiused on all sides. Horizontal beamwidth is locked at 90 degrees. Vertical beamwidth is between 40 and 50 degrees through most of the passband, but opens to about 60 degrees down low.

Vertical directivity is a tough nut to crack. If you make the mouth large enough to really get vertical CD at the low end of the passband, then the mouth is so tall the null angles become narrow. That defeats the purpose of having a horn with vertical CD, since the nulls would fall within the pattern. For me, the balance of competing priorities seems to fall in favor of something like the H290, my wood horn or the PT-F95.
 
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