Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
Is that with CX3400 HF comp engaged? If so, the last octave is playing decidedly "hot;" use DEQ to comp or tame it, maybe. You've got beaucoup sizzle, presently.
I hadn't thought of it specifically, but using the PE trap box upside down as a bass bin and swapping various waveguides on top, and various woofers below, would be a good way of finding workable combinations.
Stuff some fiberglass in to mitigate the boom, of course. I'm surprised that woofer doesn't play mids well (or maybe not,) considering that it crossed to a smallish horn in Heresy; bettin' 123A(-X) is going to work fine, closed box, as that's equivalent to L100 with the ports closed. I'm starting with those, and the 10" Dayton DC250-8 rear-mounted on floral rings, and JBL 128H-1 vented.... :thmbsp:
Last edited:
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
No Zilch. That was not the Behringer. It's a 4pi, but the K-22 woofer is too efficient for the attenuation I put together for the Dayton woofer. And it's not as flat, as you saw. But that is a temp. rig to try out woofers.
I am using the KDTs as bins until I figure out what's up. The baffle is screw on.
I will hear the EWave xo with this combo hopefully soon.
BTW, I have the QSC/DE250 combo running well with Dayton classic 8". That's surprisingly good and I have it in a smallish box. Therefore I will look at the 10" Dayton in the KDTs, I assume you see them performing well in this volume.
Waiting for the opportunity to get my JBL 123A-1s back into my apartment.
The Klipsch woofer is crossed over lower presumably, in the Heresy. (And IIRC, second order in my "version 1.5s".) Not good enough for 2 way.
I am using the KDTs as bins until I figure out what's up. The baffle is screw on.
I will hear the EWave xo with this combo hopefully soon.
BTW, I have the QSC/DE250 combo running well with Dayton classic 8". That's surprisingly good and I have it in a smallish box. Therefore I will look at the 10" Dayton in the KDTs, I assume you see them performing well in this volume.
Waiting for the opportunity to get my JBL 123A-1s back into my apartment.
The Klipsch woofer is crossed over lower presumably, in the Heresy. (And IIRC, second order in my "version 1.5s".) Not good enough for 2 way.
Rightbrained
New Member
I have placed my order for 5 of the 90° x 50° JBL waveguides . I am still undecided on the woofer.
I have to commend JBL on their service. I didnt even get put on hold and the girl from California could understand my deep southern voice
I have to commend JBL on their service. I didnt even get put on hold and the girl from California could understand my deep southern voice
The K22 has a straight-sided (pure conic section) plain-paper (no coating or treating) cone, with a relatively un-damped fabric surround. This causes, sometimes, some bad breakup modes... sometimes well below 1KHz, in a 12" driver. The paper dustcap on most of these woofers also tends to "ring" a bit, which doesn't help either. Up to the factory Heresy crossover point (which is around 650 Hz, IIRC?) it's OK... but that's about as high as you can go, without response aberrations.
OTOH- the JBL 123A/2213H has a "bell shaped" (curvilinear flared) cone... it's a parabolic section, IIRC. This acts to "distribute" the breakup modes, so that you don't wind up with one big dominant mode. Tends to smooth out the upper end frequency response quite a bit.
All the woofers I've custom-built recently, for Ewave and other "hi-eff" custom projects, have used bell-shaped cones... it just seems to work every time. With those, and a felt composition dust cap... it's hard to go terribly wrong.
BTW: The Dayton woofers also have straight-sided cones... but, the cones in those are treated, and the surround is rubber. Both of those tend to absorb excess energy in breakup mode counter-vibration in the cone. That's why they seem to work well up to relatively high frequencies...
Regards,
Gordon.
OTOH- the JBL 123A/2213H has a "bell shaped" (curvilinear flared) cone... it's a parabolic section, IIRC. This acts to "distribute" the breakup modes, so that you don't wind up with one big dominant mode. Tends to smooth out the upper end frequency response quite a bit.
All the woofers I've custom-built recently, for Ewave and other "hi-eff" custom projects, have used bell-shaped cones... it just seems to work every time. With those, and a felt composition dust cap... it's hard to go terribly wrong.
BTW: The Dayton woofers also have straight-sided cones... but, the cones in those are treated, and the surround is rubber. Both of those tend to absorb excess energy in breakup mode counter-vibration in the cone. That's why they seem to work well up to relatively high frequencies...
Regards,
Gordon.
Jack's using the DC300, rear mounted, so we should know how good that is soon.
I have the DC250s from the KLH-17 project. I originally bought them because VTH ran them closed box in his Muskas and I wanted to try that:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1830465#post1830465
I don't have many 12" drivers around here, but I'll bet HPM-100 woofs and 2214H-1s are worth trying, too. I'm playing DE250 on QEC with JBL 2206H in JBL utility cabs right now, tweaking the filter for the woofs. I don't do high-efficiency eWaves, typically, so this is a new adventure; not as if there's a dearth of subs around here to make that work.
Fun stuff.... :thmbsp:
Last edited:
ROSSO
Active Member
E-Wave, Chapter IV
Following in the foot steps of my prevoius Altec conversions, the 891A, the Madrids and the Valencias, I present the latest iteration, my "square nose" 879A Santanas. I'm about to run out of cabinets...and I ordered a pair of the QSC waveguides this morning, which have already shipped.
Following in the foot steps of my prevoius Altec conversions, the 891A, the Madrids and the Valencias, I present the latest iteration, my "square nose" 879A Santanas. I'm about to run out of cabinets...and I ordered a pair of the QSC waveguides this morning, which have already shipped.
jackgiff
Well-Known Member
OOOOOHHH! Luscious for sure. A pair of EconoWaves with LE14A's in Altec Santana cabinets is just so darn righteous. I love them.
Rightbrained
New Member
Man , my eyes are hurting. Im actually trying to read through this thread.
Looks like Earl and his cult got their panties in a wad a few times over this project...
Looks like Earl and his cult got their panties in a wad a few times over this project...
It took over a year with 79 pages and 1566 posts on diyAudio to sort through it, and he's not real happy with the outcome, I shouldn't imagine, particularly now that others are pursuing these concepts in several internet forums:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123426
[Sorry, more stuff to read. Russell did it....
]
Rightbrained
New Member
Whew ,
At least I have already read that thread over at diyaudio. My eyes are crossing from staring at this 24 inch screen.
At least I have already read that thread over at diyaudio. My eyes are crossing from staring at this 24 inch screen.
Rightbrained
New Member
Well , if I ever decide on my woofer I hope to be another satisfied customer. I ordered 5 waveguides so if I really like what I hear I will build a 5 piece HT set.
Oh you are such a teez
Not to get off topic....too much. But here is what I am doing with your Rek-O-Kut Ross.
That's the Black Widow with the extended arm, eh? Very very cool!
badmusician
Member
I have to commend JBL on their service. I didnt even get put on hold and the girl from California could understand my deep southern voice
I hope you do better than I have so far. I ordered four waveguides (two 12 x 6, two 6 x 6) on 8/11. After several unanswered calls, a couple of voice mails and one actual live contact the week before last, I was told this morning "I'll get those out today". The charge hit my credit card the day I ordered. :grumpy:
I finally ordered a pair of woofers yesterday from a different vendor. The website said 'good in stock'. Today's e-mail said "back ordered until 9/26". :grumpy::grumpy:
At least PE was prompt with the Selenuims and x-over parts. So I got that going for me.
Bill
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Thanks, Gordon, that is what I'm hearing, I appreciate the explanation why.
Comparing the Klipsch woofer to an Altec 414, for example, is there a difference in profile? Or is the cone similar with the addition of the damped -- gooped -- surround? When I imagine those two side by side I think the profile is the same. But the Altec sounds good up there.
Would you say that Eminence, who probably made the k-22, uses a better design in the cone for going high in something like the Delta 12 LFA? (Which I'm also considering. I want AE TD12 woofers, but it ain't happening.)
Thanks for the info and the cool builds.
Comparing the Klipsch woofer to an Altec 414, for example, is there a difference in profile? Or is the cone similar with the addition of the damped -- gooped -- surround? When I imagine those two side by side I think the profile is the same. But the Altec sounds good up there.
Would you say that Eminence, who probably made the k-22, uses a better design in the cone for going high in something like the Delta 12 LFA? (Which I'm also considering. I want AE TD12 woofers, but it ain't happening.)
Thanks for the info and the cool builds.
Russellc
Addicted Member
It took over a year with 79 pages and 1566 posts on diyAudio to sort through it, and he's not real happy with the outcome, I shouldn't imagine, particularly now that others are pursuing these concepts in several internet forums:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123426
[Sorry, more stuff to read. Russell did it....
Well, what are ya gonna do?
but let's not dig that old chestnut up again!
Russellc
Congrats Rosso, those look great. I'm a big fan of the LE14A woofer and those cabinets are perfect. Which compression driver are you using with those?
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
Point me at your Valencia conversion posts, OK? I've got a pair of Val Utility cabs here and I'm out of ideas.
Nice work on those Santanas. They look great!
Bauhausler
Rational Subjectivist
Top end droop in measurements
All of my mic measurements with the Behringer DEQ2496 and mic show a steep dropoff in the top octave. I've been wondering why, as the speakers don't seem to lack 'air' in listening. I wonder now if it's the long cable I'm using. It's about 30' of 4 conductor shielded mic cable. It's possible that the mic's preamp has enough source impedance to allow the cable's capacitance to shunt the highest frequencies. I'll have to try a shorter cable and see what happens.
I'm using this cable because a lot of the speakers I've been working on are heavy and it's most convenient to test them in place, across the room from my gear rack.
My last pair of Econowaves, the converted OLAdvents, went to my friend Kevin. He's powering them with a pair of souped up Audio Note Quest SE 300B amps. It sounds very nice but I think I'm hearing some boom in the bass from underdamping due to the amps' high Zout.
I'm bringing him a special pair of power amps to try. They're Heath W4 chassis with W5 16309 OPTs. Fully rebuilt with quality parts. Lotsa fiddly upgrades like Triode/Ultralinear switching, big binding posts, variable NFB, outboarded heater supplies. Every trick I knew how to pull in 2002. We used these amps at the first AK Fest (Attended by 35 people) to drive my LS3/5As in a demo room. After that I used them for about 18 months to drive La Scalas. Then they got put away or lent out for the last 4 - 5 years. They were very dusty. I think these will sound great on the Advent Ewaves.
Right now I'm listening to the JBL 6"/ Kef B110/ AR3sub 3-way rig using the stock Ewave low sensitivity crossover. There's nothing obviously wrong with this combination and The Trinity Sessions is sounding wonderful as usual. After I work out the mic cable deal I'll measure and fiddle some more. It would be great if the compensation and crossover of the stock crossover works for these.
I lent a set of PH612/D220Ti and Ewave crossovers to a friend who likes to fool with vintage speakers. He's always trying different combinations of T25s/8HDs, T35s and EV woofers in different cabs to get them right. I explained how to hook up the ewave and to use it as is. Of course the first thing he tried was to substitute a T25 for the D220Ti, which apparently was not a success. I'm hoping the ewave sound will convert him. Then of course there's endless fooling with woofers and cabs...
All of my mic measurements with the Behringer DEQ2496 and mic show a steep dropoff in the top octave. I've been wondering why, as the speakers don't seem to lack 'air' in listening. I wonder now if it's the long cable I'm using. It's about 30' of 4 conductor shielded mic cable. It's possible that the mic's preamp has enough source impedance to allow the cable's capacitance to shunt the highest frequencies. I'll have to try a shorter cable and see what happens.
I'm using this cable because a lot of the speakers I've been working on are heavy and it's most convenient to test them in place, across the room from my gear rack.
My last pair of Econowaves, the converted OLAdvents, went to my friend Kevin. He's powering them with a pair of souped up Audio Note Quest SE 300B amps. It sounds very nice but I think I'm hearing some boom in the bass from underdamping due to the amps' high Zout.
I'm bringing him a special pair of power amps to try. They're Heath W4 chassis with W5 16309 OPTs. Fully rebuilt with quality parts. Lotsa fiddly upgrades like Triode/Ultralinear switching, big binding posts, variable NFB, outboarded heater supplies. Every trick I knew how to pull in 2002. We used these amps at the first AK Fest (Attended by 35 people) to drive my LS3/5As in a demo room. After that I used them for about 18 months to drive La Scalas. Then they got put away or lent out for the last 4 - 5 years. They were very dusty. I think these will sound great on the Advent Ewaves.
Right now I'm listening to the JBL 6"/ Kef B110/ AR3sub 3-way rig using the stock Ewave low sensitivity crossover. There's nothing obviously wrong with this combination and The Trinity Sessions is sounding wonderful as usual. After I work out the mic cable deal I'll measure and fiddle some more. It would be great if the compensation and crossover of the stock crossover works for these.
I lent a set of PH612/D220Ti and Ewave crossovers to a friend who likes to fool with vintage speakers. He's always trying different combinations of T25s/8HDs, T35s and EV woofers in different cabs to get them right. I explained how to hook up the ewave and to use it as is. Of course the first thing he tried was to substitute a T25 for the D220Ti, which apparently was not a success. I'm hoping the ewave sound will convert him. Then of course there's endless fooling with woofers and cabs...
Last edited: