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Denon DL-110 - MM or MC Input Compatibility

rushfan

rushfan

Super Member
First of all, a quick thanks to everybody (Howard et al) who recommended the Denon DL-110 to go with my Pioneer PL-600. It was obvious after about five minutes of play that this cartridge is a keeper. I can hardly wait to hear it after the break-in period is over. For the record, I am using 2 grams VTF since that figure kept popping up as a recommended number.

I am using a Yamaha CX-630 preamp as an outboard phono preamp so that I can continue to use the phono stage on my main preamp with my other turntable. The Yamaha features both MM and MC switching (a good sign, no?) and as you might have guessed, the MC input sounds so much better than the MM. Not just louder, it plays with much more oomph.

I have heard that high-output MC cartridges can overload MC inputs. What are the symptoms and dangers of this? The PL-600 sounds just fine when played through the MC input - no distortion or shrillness that I can detect. Just the same, I don't want to damage anything or compromise sound quality. What should I be listening for?
 
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rushfan said:
First of all, a quick thanks to everybody (Howard et al) who recommended the Denon DL-110 to go with my Pioneer PL-600. It was obvious after about five minutes of play that this cartridge is a keeper. I can hardly wait to hear it after the break-in period is over. For the record, I am using 2 grams VTF since that figure kept popping up as a recommended number.

I am using a Yamaha CX-630 preamp as an outboard phono preamp so that I can continue to use the phono stage on my main preamp with my other turntable. The Yamaha features both MM and MC switching (a good sign, no?) and as you might have guessed, the MC input sounds so much better than the MM. Not just louder, it plays with much more oomph.

I have heard that high-output MC cartridges can overload MC inputs. What are the symptoms and dangers of this? The PL-600 sounds just fine when played through the MC input - no distortion or shrillness that I can detect. Just the same, I don't want to damage anything or compromise sound quality. What should I be listening for?
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I have a Denon DL-110 and on my Luxman L-430 on MM setting I don't need to set the volume any higher than the 10 o'clock position or I am at risk of going deaf. If I select MC then I can't get it past 8 o'clock and that's not much.

Maybe your setup has high and low output settings for MC's some do.

IMO all you get is more gain i.e. more volume.

If it doesn't overload your amp and you like the sound go for it I say.
 
Hi, I just took out an old DL-110 last night to try on one of the TTs here.

I am using a Kenwood KR-5200 for the sound.

I read This from the Needle Doctor:

"The owners manual claims in both English and Japanese 1.6mV of output, but when I tested the cartridge it produced 2.2mV. That's the difference between an easy-to use and tweak cartridge. I've always suspected the output was higher then claimed. . . Best diamond stylus in its price range. Under a microscope, it looks like a 100% nude, square-shank diamond with a very fine cut similar to cartridges costing twice the price. I love it.

To get the maximum enjoyment out of your album collection, check out the Denon DL-110 phono cartridge. The Denon DL-110 is a moving-coil cartridge. However, it is has high output, and can therefore be used with a moving-magnet phono input."

I have not had a problem yet.:scratch2:

Thanks,
John.:music::D
 
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I've run mine on MM settings, being a HOMC ( High Output Moving Coil) design.

A MC setting would introduce perhaps more oomph, as you say, due to more gain, but I'd be concerned with perhaps introducing noise?

Try MM with a bit more volume and compare.
 
I've run a 110 and 160 through the MC input on a couple of different preamps before with decent enough results. As an example of volume settings, I'd say the volume is at 12 compared to 2 for a MM setting to get the same output. Not so sure that there is that great of an SQ difference. However, turn up the volume too much on the MC setting and feedback and rumble will set-in. I would not think that this is doing any physical damage but it certainly is unlistenable.

FWIW, I currently run both cartridges on the MM settings of an SAE P-102 (MC and MM input), Onkyo 705, and a McIntosh C-26.
 
Hmm.. some food for thought here.

There's less oomph with MM selected even when the relative volumes are the same. I should try listening with headphones to get a better sense of what's going on. I can't crank the volume much when the family is home.

I suppose that I could always use the MC as a neo-loudness control for low volume listening. I though that perhaps the equalization curve was different between the two, not just the gain.
 
rushfan said:
Hmm.. some food for thought here.

There's less oomph with MM selected even when the relative volumes are the same. I should try listening with headphones to get a better sense of what's going on. I can't crank the volume much when the family is home.

I suppose that I could always use the MC as a neo-loudness control for low volume listening. I though that perhaps the equalization curve was different between the two, not just the gain.
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The equalization curve is the same for MC Vs. MM. But, you may have a load mismatch using the DL-110 into the MC inputs. Many non-adjustable MC phono inputs use a load setting of 1k Ohms. The DL-110 is optimized for use with MM inputs, which almost universally use 47K Ohms. Theoretically, the DL-110 should sound better on the MM inputs, but I would use whichever sounds better and not worry too much about which is louder. Just be aware when doing your listening tests that louder will sound "better" so do the best you can to match the levels before doing any critical listening and making any decisions.
 
Tedrick said:
The equalization curve is the same for MC Vs. MM. But, you may have a load mismatch using the DL-110 into the MC inputs. Many non-adjustable MC phono inputs use a load setting of 1k Ohms. The DL-110 is optimized for use with MM inputs, which almost universally use 47K Ohms. Theoretically, the DL-110 should sound better on the MM inputs, but I would use whichever sounds better and not worry too much about which is louder. Just be aware when doing your listening tests that louder will sound "better" so do the best you can to match the levels before doing any critical listening and making any decisions.
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The MC input of my preamp is rated at 100 Ohms which seems close to the 160 Ohm output impedence of the DL-110. Is 100 Ohms considered "passive"? Denon suggests 47k Ohms loading for the DL-110 but I am not savvy enough to figure out why. The maximum input voltage for the MC section of my preamp is 7 mV which is well over the 1.6/2.2 mV measured from the DL-110. It's 170 mV for the MM section, if that matters.

Lastly, I read this elsewhere. The writer references the DL-160 which is virtually identical the the DL-110:

"if you load a high-output high-impedance MC like the DL-160 with the 100 Ohms input resistance of a normal MC preamp then the cartridge's output collapses to, in this particular case, half of its nominal value. That's 0.8mV for the DL-160, and it surely won't overdrive nor damage anything at all."

Is that an accurate statement?

You might be wondering why I'm fighting for the MC input so hard versus the MM. The MM sounds great when turned up (11 o'clock vs. 8 o'clock) but the MC just seems to sound better at equal volumes. I get the whole volume-slash-perception trickery but what I'm after here is purity. I just want to ensure that I am not fooling myself by introducing some other dynamics enhancing nonsense.

Thanks for indulging me further!
 
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My cheapo preamp has both MM and MC settings. I can only add that my 160 and 110 carts sound murky set to MC, much better definition with MM. Though I would agree there's a bass boost with MC. Guess it all depends on the preamp.
 
OK, theory aside, I'm leaning towards going with MM now. I gave the turntable a pretty good listen through headphones and using MC is almost too much of a good thing. The dynamics are just a little too boosted. There isn't any reduction in treble but the bass is almost too much. The VUs on my cassette deck went nuts when I toggled the monitor to "source", indicating just how hot the output was with MC. On the flip side, the resulting signal when using MM is a lot quieter but a wee bit more natural. I'll have to crank my amp up when using the Pioneer turntable versus the Dual (Ortofon Super OM-20) but I can live with that.
 
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I think you are heading down the correct path.
Regards,
Jim
 
jimreeves said:
My cheapo preamp has both MM and MC settings. I can only add that my 160 and 110 carts sound murky set to MC, much better definition with MM. Though I would agree there's a bass boost with MC. Guess it all depends on the preamp.
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Are you referring to the Cambridge 640P?
 
Anyone who has owned an adjustable phonostage will probably suggest the Denon sounds at it's best on MM/47K and the gain somewhere between 44-50db depending on your amp. section. Mine is set at 48db. When I had a pre-set phonostage, MM/MC choice, and neither were ideal. The MM was distant and my amp. was too small, turning it up past it's sweet area. The MC was mildly bloated, not a natural sound. In the end the DL160 sat around while I used a straight MM $100 cart (sounded better) until I found a good match (stage) for the Denon.
 
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I had forgotten about this thread. Interesting to see it resurrected.

I found a solution to the problem. I'm using the pre out signal from my preamp to feed one of the line level input jacks on my receiver. By setting the preamp volume to the one o'clock position, I get roughly the same output from the turntable as I do from a CD player. This gives me the benefit of using the MM section of the preamp while being able to control the gain delivered to the receiver. So far, so good!
 
Rushfan, glad you find a workaround. Very inventive!

Dr. Mux:
No, I was referring to the TC-760LC I was using before.
 
I just purchased a Cambridge 640 preamp and wowsies, what a great improvement. Whats so cool is I can crank my "sui 9090 half way and the monitor 10's come through perfectly. Its sounds so good loud, unlike a cd where my ears can only manage half a song at high volumes. Played my MM cartridge last night, tonight I will try out my Denon MC! Can't wait.
 
I got mine in yesterday. The TT sounds great through tubes but I don't know how much the 640p has to do with it. Just to see if I could notice any difference I hooked it to the receiver aux and it sounded the same as without it running through the phono on the receiver without the 630p. Maybe the receiver is limiting this test. Either way my main concern was being able ti play LP's through the tube amp so it works. :thmbsp:
 
My two cents on this is that the DL-110 (and the DL-160) were MEANT to be used with a moving-magnet phono stage, thus the "high output" configuration. The load is matched/tailored to MM, so why not just use it the way it was meant to be used?
 
iLUVanalog said:
My two cents on this is that the DL-110 (and the DL-160) were MEANT to be used with a moving-magnet phono stage, thus the "high output" configuration. The load is matched/tailored to MM, so why not just use it the way it was meant to be used?
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Not sure if the question was directed at me (being the original poster) but we're in agreement. I use the MM input on my preamp but instead of using the preamp's tape out to connect to my receiver's aux input, I'm using the preamp out instead. I get more volume that way and added the ability to adjust the gain. It works really well.
 
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