• Please note that Audiokarma will be offline briefly for updates early on Monday morning, September 28th.

Strain-gauge cart?! SDT.10.2 Semiconductor disc transducer

I have an EPC-450C-II and both a Panasonic SE-405 and Technics SH-400 I use for CD-4 records and it sounds wonderful.

I actually like the sound of the SH-400 a little better than the SE-405 but both are fine.

The SE-405 is better with MM cartridges though.

EDIT: The EPC-450C-II looks just like the EPC-451C except that the metal inlay is metallic red instead of silver. The styli are interchangeable.

Doug
 
Last edited:
According to the BAS, the WIN cartridge was based on a patent to Euphonics, which I had seen in the late sixties. http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-04-1112-760809b.pdf They also reviewed it. Also, as with ceramic cartridges, for complete accuracy to the RIAA curve, there has to be a slight rise in frequency compensation from 500 HZ to 2120 HZ. The RIAA curve is a production standard - It is up to the reproduction transducer and electronics to reproduce it.
 
One post has mentioned SoundSmith. They are the only folks I know of who can retip it should it have issues :)
 
Found this review. Strange that it's light sensitive!

Also interesting that the builder recommends 1.6g on the updated version (not 1.2 as I'd read earlier).

Win STD-10 Strain-Gauge Cartridge

The Win SDT-10 strain-gauge cartridge is a lightweight pickup (less than 2.5 grams) using semiconductor strain gauges to modulate current from the power source. The output of this unit is very high (stated to be 0.8 V rms at 3.54 cm/sec) and RIAA equalized. It is connected (via its power source) to any high-level input of the preamp or directly to the power amp if the power amp has level controls. No controls are provided on the power source. It is an amplitude sensing device with moving elements said to be of very low mass. For further description of the operating theory and specifications along with some critical evaluations see Sound Advice, Vol. 1, Nos. 1 and 2, and Audiogram, Vol. 1, Nos. 1, 2, and 3. The cartridge and power source cost $225.

Several of us here in California were in the market for a new cartridge. We finally succeeded in contacting Dr. Sao Win of Win Laboratories. He offered to send one of his latest versions (April 1976) to try out and compare with other cartridges. This one, he said, has much flatter frequency response than earlier models and no tracking problems using a stylus force of 1.6 grams. We were advised that our Formula 4 arm was among those considered ideal to mate with the Win. Advice was also extended to bypass any preamp for best results.

The Win/Formula 4/Thorens TD-125 was auditioned as a unit in four audiophile systems. Most of the listening was done bypassing preamps altogether. Here are a few findings: High-level massed violins sometimes become flat, not necessarily harsh or strident, but there was a meshing of separate sounds into one big whistle-like sound (Shostakovitch, Symphony No. 8, EMI ASD 2917). There was a minimal sense of air, space, and openness about the sound—as if a Windex-cleaned window had been closed. The Shostakovitch is merely an example; we listened to many more works. The overall impression of classical music was that a peculiar dullness had settled on the orchestra. On the other hand, single violins and double basses were highly musical (Vivaldi,Seasons, Argo ZRG 654, and Rossini, Sonata No. 2, MHS 1166).

The redoubtable trinity-perspective, image stability, and instrumental focus—was exemplary and new musical aspects of old favorites were consistently revealed. There was, however, a slight forward shift in location of solo violin and trumpet as notes ascended the scale (Bach, Milstein,DGG 2563415/17, and The Sound of Musical Instruments, Acoustic Research Demo Record, Vol. 1). One new favorite (Pigs Eye Jass, Fidelity First, Vol. 2, Insight Records) was a stunner when played with the Win. Nothing seemed lacking or amiss. There were moments when the thrill of live sound in the room would grip the psyche. Indeed, the Win would have won had this been the only record heard.

Bells and cymbals, at times, mistracked or mistraced (John Renbourn, Sir John Alot, Reprise 6344; M&K Sound, The Bottom End, Vol. 1; and the Shure Trackability Test Record). If the recording level is low enough not to cause breakup, hard transients are crisp and clean with what seems to be the right amount of ring and shimmer. Sibilants were not exaggerated or spiffy, but on occasion would leave the singer and spatter harshly into the room (Joan Baez, Farewell, Angelina, Vanguard VDS 79200). Singing voices, male and female, were not always entirely natural in tonal quality. Surprisingly, a couple of our torture discs passed the tracking/tracing test (Miles Davis, Sketches of Spain, Columbia CS 8271, last few minutes side 1, and Moussorgsky, Pictures, Organ, MHS 1472, last few minutes of side 2).

Bass definition and solidity are winners with all types of records and music, especially if the rising low end output can be flattened somewhat with an equalizer. Inner clarity and detail were maintained to a high degree on thickly textured material (Rachmaninov, Symphony No. 2, EMIASD 2889). Every record, except those with exaggerated stereo separation, presented a broad stereo stage with optimum center fill. There was no right/left clustering of instruments.

We were baffled by a hum that persisted even after we had tried all the usual hum-reducing tricks. It turned out that the cartridge is sensitive to light. The hum completely disappeared when the turntable light was switched off. This phenomenon can be verified by passing a flashlight beam rapidly back and forth across the cartridge—loud thumps issue from the speakers with volume well up. For further verification, leave the turntable light on and shade the cartridge with a piece of cardboard--the hum vanishes. Other extraneous noises such as surface noise were less obtrusive than with the ADC XLM II, which is itself a quiet cartridge.

If the foregoing seems inconclusive, it is because the Win has such tremendous potential and so many positive attributes that it is hard to accept its imperfections. If only those violins were sweet and airy, the singing voice more convincing, and the tracking problems cured!
— Dow Williams (California)

[Ed. Note: It is widely understood here that the Win cartridge is based on the 1960's Euphonics design. Apparently Dr. Win has bought rights to Euphonics' patents—which are also said to be near expiration—and made relatively minor changes in the design, not that it was unsuccessful tobegin with. Further, there seems to be a problem in the marketing of the cartridge, an agreement to sell through ESS having fallen through. Finally, Win is said to be having trouble with unit-to-unit repeatability.— J.B.B]

Vol.4,Num. 11/12 August/September 1976The BAS Speaker
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Set it up on the PL-8000/R-117/HPM-1500's. The Luxman is a semi-sweet unit, between Concept and Onkyo's TOTL sounds. HPMs are revealing and have monster bass.

To the CD inputs, through 'Direct CD' and 'tone bypass'. Even the balance control is bypassed--so the Win unit's R/L knobs were the only balance control.

Inner track of side A, Dan Fogleberg's Phoenix "Face the Fire". Heavy bass notes and cymbals, orchestration, and lead guitar in the finale; Joe Walsh is credited "for his 'Moosical' help".

First impression is :

Crystal-clear highs, even compared with my MC705 with <20 hrs on it. Quietest background noise.

Intense.

Bass just exactly on target, effortless and bottomless.
Transients sound amazing.

I'll do the midrange test with the Hales or DQ-20's, since that's what I had with the high-end Technics MC cart that's the Reigning Champion here.

Yeah oh yeah.

I do need to put it on the PX-3 because there's some 'crabwalking' I'll need to smooth out on the PL's rails, or balancing better. The very light mass makes that issue more exaggerated, and the Yamaha's tonearm could be a better match I don't know yet. The sound dropped off on one channel a couple times, I turned it up, it came back on-line. And I want to make secure, soldered connections instead of my questionable RCA connectors.

The channels seem reversed, but that was trivial to deal with. Tried the MC cart on the SG setup and it sounded like Golum from LOTRs drowning in Jello. Not flexible. Good reason for having more than one TT.
 
Last edited:
I passed on a Win SG mounted in a TT with the PS on e-Bay a few weeks ago. Apparently none of us got it and it was a very good price for the purchaser.
 
Susurus said:
First impression is :

Crystal-clear highs, even compared with my MC705 with <20 hrs on it. Quietest background noise.

Intense.

Bass just exactly on target, effortless and bottomless.
Transients sound amazing.

I'll do the midrange test with the Hales or DQ-20's, since that's what I had with the high-end Technics MC cart that's the Reigning Champion here.

Yeah oh yeah.
Click to expand...

:tresbon:

How is the output/amplitude? Plenty of punch on reserve or do you have to push with the amplifier to get things moving?

Good to know you like the results you're getting with this setup. My experience is there are so many variables to getting a good combo with cartridge + preamp + amp + speakers.

Interested to hear how the mids test goes, and I know the experimenting will continue in casa Susurus. :thmbsp:
 
With the knobs on the separate unit at half-way it's the same as a CD player. I had it in the CD input.

I tried it higher and didn't hear higher distortion but scaled it back anyway because I wanted to keep from a possible impedance mismatch. Not used to concern about too much output from a cart system!

I'm still a noobie on vinyl and the variables can be daunting; yes every step in the chain has to be addressed. Without a global plan throwing money at the problem won't necessarily result in better music.

I still haven't constructed a vinyl cleaner for one.
 
Last edited:
Hi Folks

could those of you with SE-405 and Panasonic EPC4xx cartridge please provide some input..

I just got this pairing (EPC451C in my case).

Powered it up initially and started with a couple of basic tests to make sure it is running ok.

Results:
1) Channel imbalance of 2db+ (both MM and SG input)
2) Frequency Response with substantial rise in the high end (+8db)

Questions:
1) Does anyone have schematics?
2) Advice on how to adjust / resolve the two above issues/results? (is a +8db rise in frequency response normal for these??)

Anything else a SG noob should watch out for?

thanks

David
 
Panasonic SE-405 & EPC-451C problems

dlaloum said:
Hi Folks

could those of you with SE-405 and Panasonic EPC4xx cartridge please provide some input..

I just got this pairing (EPC451C in my case).

Powered it up initially and started with a couple of basic tests to make sure it is running ok.

Results:
1) Channel imbalance of 2db+ (both MM and SG input)
2) Frequency Response with substantial rise in the high end (+8db)

Questions:
1) Does anyone have schematics?
2) Advice on how to adjust / resolve the two above issues/results? (is a +8db rise in frequency response normal for these??)

Anything else a SG noob should watch out for?

thanks

David
Click to expand...

Hi David,

I have seen SE-405 strain gauge preamp/CD-4 decoders with internal corrosion right out of its original unopened sealed box. These were made in the mid 70's, so it is possible to encounter this. Corrosion could be the responsible factor in your situation.

The SC/MM switch on the rear panel of your SE-405 is notorious for dirty internal contacts that will need your attention right up front on almost any SE-405. The front panel mode switch may also be in need of cleaning. This mode switch should always be left in stereo unless you are going to play CD-4 recordings.

It is unclear as to how you came to the conclusion of a rising high frequency response. If anything, the SE-405 has a truncated high-end that is only rated to 15 kHz and this does not do the cartridge any justice.

Some of the documentation for the SE-405 can be downloaded from here: http://www.vinylengine.com

In short, the SE-405 is an appropriate and reasonable strain gauge preamp for introducing someone to strain gauge cartridges, but should not be confused with better strain gauge preamps.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt
 
Hi Guys,

thanks for the responses...

As soon as I got the beastie, I cleaned all the connectors with a Deoxit "pen".

I don't know how to go about cleaning the internals of switches...

Advice/Suggestion/HowTo?

First thing I did, once I heard it was running and playing - was put on a CBS test record and graph frequency response (see attached).

Is this normal?

I did pull down the doco from VE, but it was the same as the paper manual I received with the set. - And there are no schematics there.

When I tested the MM input (in stereo mode) the 15KHz truncation (LPF) was very clear - but as you can see from the SG F/R chart it does not seem to apply to the SG input (at least in stereo mode).

I am hoping that the SE-405 will tide me over until the Lou Dorren pre/demodulator is released....

bye for now

David
 

Attachments

  • F_r_Test_Of_Epc451c.jpg
    F_r_Test_Of_Epc451c.jpg
    26.2 KB · Views: 50
Panasonic SE-405 problems

dlaloum said:
Hi Guys,

thanks for the responses...

As soon as I got the beastie, I cleaned all the connectors with a Deoxit "pen".

I don't know how to go about cleaning the internals of switches...

Advice/Suggestion/HowTo?

First thing I did, once I heard it was running and playing - was put on a CBS test record and graph frequency response (see attached).

Is this normal?

When I tested the MM input (in stereo mode) the 15KHz truncation (LPF) was very clear - but as you can see from the SG F/R chart it does not seem to apply to the SG input (at least in stereo mode).

I am hoping that the SE-405 will tide me over until the Lou Dorren pre/demodulator is released....

bye for now

David
Click to expand...

Hello David,

You have to clean the internal switches as previously mentioned.

You do this by removing the 6 screws on the bottom that are near the sides. You then pull back on the upper wood grain cover until it breaks free from the foam strip at the faceplate. It tends to stick fairly bad, so don't be surprised if you have to use some force.

Once the top cover is off, you then spray your plastic safe contact cleaner into the long SC/MM switch at the rear and work the switch while accurately spraying into the small holes at the top of the switch. You then proceed to clean the mode switch at the front working it and spraying there as well.

It is possible (but not verified) that cleaning the rear switch might improve your rising high frequency response problem, and yes, that graph does not look normal for response taken from the front right/left line outputs unless I'm overlooking something regarding inverse RIAA EQ.

Regarding the input jacks on the SE-405; there is only one right/left pair for both strain gauge (SC) and moving magnet (MM). You have to use the rear switch to select between the two cartridge types.

If you use a MM cartridge and have the switch set to SC, you will be sending a current through your MM cartridge's windings (not good). If you have it set to MM when using a strain gauge cartridge, you won't get any output from your SE-405.

Finally, I don't see why anyone would want to use a strain gauge/CD-4 demodulator preamp combo unit if that user will never play CD-4 records. Better to go with a simple, purest approach, quality, SG preamp for stereo recordings. Ask Pio1980 about this.


Best wishes, Professor Bizzt
 
Last edited:
Thanks Prof.

I will follow your instructions as posted....

I am interested in hearing the much vaunted SG system in use, and the set of pre + cartridge came up on fleabay - so I jumped in.

My skills with soldering iron are strictly limited.... so the efforts of Pio1980 and Flavio have been noted, but are a bit of a last resort for me.

SG Pre's are not exactly a dime a dozen around the traps, so I was happy to get a complete combo. (Probably would not have bid otherwise)

Now it's a matter of what can be done to get the best results from it, pending the eventual arrival of Lou Dorren's new effort, which I expect will provide high end performance... (whether stereo or CD-4)

A possible alternative may be to hack up a circuit that I can put in front of a Flat Pre (RIAA EQ switched off) to provide the necessary current to the SG cart.... but again this involves soldering etc...

thanks for your input

David
 
SDT Power Source Adjustment

The red LED is a power on light. The small adjustment on the bottom is a channel balance adjustment. It adjusts the gain of the left channel relative to the right channel. Per the instructions for adjustment you need to use an insulated screwdriver, keep your amplifier volume low and use of a test record is suggested. Also, the instructions state that very little adjustment is required as the balance is adjusted at the factory in conjunction with the associated SDT-10 Cartridge. The two Chanel Gain knobs on either side of the red power led are a later model of the power source. The earlier model used the same case but without the two gain knobs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom