flavio81
Turntable technician
100% agree. No significant difference between baerwald/loefgren/stevenson, all three work.
IGD test: Listen and see if you can tell the inner grooves from the outer grooves.
- Thread starter Brett a
- Start date
100% agree. No significant difference between baerwald/loefgren/stevenson, all three work.
Okay okay I'll play 
....
SH: 2nd half sounds a little better to me, but sounds more like record wear that I heard in the first one than inner groove stuff
SK: I didn't really hear any difference, if I had to pick, maybe the 1st half is better.
ST: That's a fun one. I think the 2nd half sounds better, but I think I just like the recording better.
....SH: 2nd half sounds a little better to me, but sounds more like record wear that I heard in the first one than inner groove stuff
SK: I didn't really hear any difference, if I had to pick, maybe the 1st half is better.
ST: That's a fun one. I think the 2nd half sounds better, but I think I just like the recording better.
Multiplex
Appease my earhole.
I'm home listening on my Sennheisers, 
and yeah, this is a tough one. These are some great sounding recordings that are obviously well cut and pressed. If I have to take a stab at it, I'll say...
1. SH- 1: outer 2: inner ...Is that mistracking distortion I hear on the keys right before the second track cuts? Could be the recording, groove damage, or just maybe... IGD.
2. SK- 1: inner 2: outer ...First class recording! Both tracks sound great. Hard to tell.
3. ST- 1: inner 2: outer ...This is another tough one. Those tracks are so different. Kind of like comparing apples to Volkswagens!
I'll admit it. You got me. All of these selections sound very good with no apparent IGD. So I guess I will have to revise the statement from my prior post on that other thread to: It's physics, (unless you can afford to defy them!) :stupid:
and yeah, this is a tough one. These are some great sounding recordings that are obviously well cut and pressed. If I have to take a stab at it, I'll say...1. SH- 1: outer 2: inner ...Is that mistracking distortion I hear on the keys right before the second track cuts? Could be the recording, groove damage, or just maybe... IGD.
2. SK- 1: inner 2: outer ...First class recording! Both tracks sound great. Hard to tell.
3. ST- 1: inner 2: outer ...This is another tough one. Those tracks are so different. Kind of like comparing apples to Volkswagens!
I'll admit it. You got me. All of these selections sound very good with no apparent IGD. So I guess I will have to revise the statement from my prior post on that other thread to: It's physics, (unless you can afford to defy them!) :stupid:
dnpainting
Super Member
In reading here on AK about IGD descriptions with the volume level going lower, (can't say that this description is correct or not because I have no clue) but, you can hear volume differences between the 2 tracks. Or, it could just be the way that track was originally recorded. If this is in fact one of the things to look for in IGD, I would say:
SH- 2nd is Inner
SK- 2nd is Inner
ST- 1st is Inner
Just rambling as I have absolutely no idea WTF I am talking about.
EDIT: I meant to say Dynamic Range drops or flattens a bit.
SH- 2nd is Inner
SK- 2nd is Inner
ST- 1st is Inner
Just rambling as I have absolutely no idea WTF I am talking about.
EDIT: I meant to say Dynamic Range drops or flattens a bit.
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Brett a
~◦●○o0o○●◦~
Okay okay I'll play
SH: 2nd half sounds a little better to me, but sounds more like record wear that I heard in the first one than inner groove stuff
SK: I didn't really hear any difference, if I had to pick, maybe the 1st half is better.
ST: That's a fun one. I think the 2nd half sounds better, but I think I just like the recording better.
Two of you are SOOOooo close and one of you is a winner!.
~
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luckydog
Canis inquirit
All good stuff. I just caught up with this thread, and still intend to listen.
Before that, my 2p worth on straightening out some of the principles in play here :
1. Tracking alignment distortion is but a relatively small contribution to overall true IGD, however it applies to all frequencies and levels, and is easiest to hear as lack of clarity on quiet passages IME.
2. The biggest contribution to true IGD is due to pinch effect. This increases with square of level, and with inverse square of groove radius, and is adversely influenced by RIAA frequency emphasis. So it hacks up rapidly toward inner grooves at high levels, esp for high frequencies. Being caused by pinch effect, it is reduced for small minor radius stylii. Distortion can be numerically huge, but is harmonic, and typically only shows up obviously at programme peaks, depends also on mastering level and compression tricks.
3. Mistracking due to inner groove modulation angle, or pinch effect, increasing beyond what cartridge can handle. Sort of a cousin of (2), but pretty gross. Same dependancies as (2), but sounds obvious, typically as chaotic sibilence on programme peaks. This is the one most peeps find totally objectionable.
3 can be entirely avoidable, cartridge specific, alignment and setup/arm sensitive
2 can be minimised with fine line styli, can be virtually undetectable
1 is unavoidable, but can be moved out away from inner grooves, and is subtle
So yes, audible IGD can be virtually inaudible/avoidable.
I quietly fancy I'm pretty good at hearing and seperating these effects, so will take the test as soon as I've got access to my rig !
Before that, my 2p worth on straightening out some of the principles in play here :
1. Tracking alignment distortion is but a relatively small contribution to overall true IGD, however it applies to all frequencies and levels, and is easiest to hear as lack of clarity on quiet passages IME.
2. The biggest contribution to true IGD is due to pinch effect. This increases with square of level, and with inverse square of groove radius, and is adversely influenced by RIAA frequency emphasis. So it hacks up rapidly toward inner grooves at high levels, esp for high frequencies. Being caused by pinch effect, it is reduced for small minor radius stylii. Distortion can be numerically huge, but is harmonic, and typically only shows up obviously at programme peaks, depends also on mastering level and compression tricks.
3. Mistracking due to inner groove modulation angle, or pinch effect, increasing beyond what cartridge can handle. Sort of a cousin of (2), but pretty gross. Same dependancies as (2), but sounds obvious, typically as chaotic sibilence on programme peaks. This is the one most peeps find totally objectionable.
3 can be entirely avoidable, cartridge specific, alignment and setup/arm sensitive
2 can be minimised with fine line styli, can be virtually undetectable
1 is unavoidable, but can be moved out away from inner grooves, and is subtle
So yes, audible IGD can be virtually inaudible/avoidable.
I quietly fancy I'm pretty good at hearing and seperating these effects, so will take the test as soon as I've got access to my rig !
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Brett a
~◦●○o0o○●◦~
Thanks for taking the time to record those clips. Great sounding system, Brett!
You're welcome, and thanks for the kind words. I'm thinking of doing some more but with familiar music and maybe some pairings with the cart in, then considerably out of, alignment. I've never really found alignment to make much of a difference with AT Microline stylii.
dnpainting
Super Member
I do wish to apologize Brett, I realized that I did not offer thanks to you for doing this. I normally do and have No Excuse as to why I did not. So, Thank you kind sir for taking time out of your day to create a fun learning excersise on IGD. I really appreciate it.
David
David
Thanks for posting these - I'm not about to try inner/outter etc -they all sounded great - I would say the ST at about 1:04 and onwards might have had a faint bit of distortion - extremely hard to tell - it could have been psychological since that is what I was listening for.
I made a note of SK at 2:57 - again likely psychological.
Thanks,
I made a note of SK at 2:57 - again likely psychological.
Thanks,