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Phase Linear amp preamp combo

Vistance

Vistance

Super Member
Hey guys, there's a small local audio shop that I go to from time to time and today I stopped by and they had a Phase Linear 200 Series Two amplifier and matching Phase Linear 2000 Series Two preamplifier listed at $200. They're very cool looking pieces, but not sure what opinions hold on these as they're predecessors to Carver and I know that has some highly polarized opinions from folks. I'm not in dire need of more gear, but if this is a decent price I can pick them up. They both look to be in good shape as well, and they always hook up the stuff if you ask.

Thoughts? Any reliability issues, unobtainium, or subjective sound quality opinions?

Pics for reference (One I'm looking at does not have the wood cabinet):
284811-phase_linear_model_2000_series_2_wwalnut_cabinet.jpg


200_II_front.jpg
 
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Phase Linear has 2 camps. Those who like them and those who don't. I like Phase Linear and have had good luck with all equipment I've had. I've had PL 400 and 200 amps and numerous pre amps and thought they were great for rocking out. I recently sold my 400 once I got my Spectro Acoustic (late 70's PL off shoot/related) setup serviced. I prefer my Spectro system over the PL, but I still like PL equipment.
 
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I have never had any problems with any of my PL gear. I believe that the term 'Flame Linear' comes from the fact that many bands used the amps and over drove them.
I like PL and the 200 and 2000 are good pieces of gear. For 200 for the pair I think it's a good deal. If they haven't been serviced then I would do that right away, if they have been recently serviced, and you could use them then I think it's a good deal. Heck, if they have been serviced and they only want 200 then if you don't like them you can always get more than your $$ back.
I am assuming that it's 200 for the pair and not 200/piece.... You didn't specify.
 
Oh, yes it was $200 for the pair. Carver gear comes up rarely so I never get to hear it, but from people in the know when I ask tend to not be so positive. One remarked that their gear was powerful, but not very musical no matter what they tried and very gimmicky. This is what I hear about Carver, but knowing Bob Carver also worked at Phase Linear makes me afraid some of the negative press I hear about Carver might also be applicable (Or not applicable, depending if one believes it) to Phase Linear gear.

It's for those very reasons I haven't bought any of the Carver things that I've found, since all the ones I saw were rather pricey to take a risk on not liking at all. Again I have plenty of amps I'm happy with, but with lesser known stuff like this I'm always a bit unsure what it's worth or how praised it is. I was thinking this stuff was worth a lot more than $200 and was a steal but did not want to buy it without doing my typical research. If it's just the going price, I'd probably pass as I don't need it - but it is some cool looking stuff. The shop doesn't really service anything that isn't Pioneer, Sansui, or Kenwood so I'm sure nothing has been done to them unless the previous owner did.
 
Bucky Badger said:
I have never had any problems with any of my PL gear. I believe that the term 'Flame Linear' comes from the fact that many bands used the amps and over drove them.
Click to expand...

The actual problem was many homeowners used the amps, they blew speakers, and caught on fire. Flame Linear is no joke, it was reality for those who wanted high power and couldn't afford Crown until they smoked their first set of speakers.
 
Vistance said:
Oh, yes it was $200 for the pair. Carver gear comes up rarely so I never get to hear it, but from people in the know when I ask tend to not be so positive. One remarked that their gear was powerful, but not very musical no matter what they tried and very gimmicky. This is what I hear about Carver, but knowing Bob Carver also worked at Phase Linear makes me afraid some of the negative press I hear about Carver might also be applicable (Or not applicable, depending if one believes it) to Phase Linear gear.

It's for those very reasons I haven't bought any of the Carver things that I've found, since all the ones I saw were rather pricey to take a risk on not liking at all. Again I have plenty of amps I'm happy with, but with lesser known stuff like this I'm always a bit unsure what it's worth or how praised it is. I was thinking this stuff was worth a lot more than $200 and was a steal but did not want to buy it without doing my typical research. If it's just the going price, I'd probably pass as I don't need it - but it is some cool looking stuff. The shop doesn't really service anything that isn't Pioneer, Sansui, or Kenwood so I'm sure nothing has been done to them unless the previous owner did.
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It sounds like the people in the "know" don't really know much after all if they are telling you that all Carver gear is non musical and gimmicky.

I suggest you listen to Carver gear for yourself then make that determination.

There is a reason why most of the Carver gear you see on Ebay is selling for a considerable percentage more than most gear of the same original price and power of other well know brands, logic and reason dictates this

That reason is not that most Carver gear is unmusical or gimmicky. In fact some of his gear actually is selling for more used than it cost new and would not command those prices if that was true.

Certainly Bob himself had some outrageous gimmicky showmanship behavior from time to time and some of his gear was unorthodox in design such as the sonic hologram generator and the "cube" and Coffee can amps which was on the gimmicky side which i'm sure made some people think all of his gear was gimmicky but you have two types of people out there devoted fans and people who cant stand his stuff.


I personally like most of his gear, not all of it but most of it and I have listened to lots and lots of gear :yes:



REGARDS SNOW
 
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Good observations Snow. I have had and still do have both PL gear and Carver pieces and really like them. I use a 700B that's been recapped to push my QLS1's (In that system I also have a PL 8000 II TT) and I have a Carver C-4000 hooked up to my recapped PL400 playing through a pair of PL Andromedas.
Who ever say's that this gear isn't musical and gimmicky should come over, with a 6 pack or good bttl. of 12yo. (preferably both :D) and listen for themselves.
I do agree that Bob is quite a character. A very nice guy and smarter than I will ever be.
For 200 for the pair I would think that it's a no brainer. Look at the completed eplay auctions for both pieces and you will see that you can get your $$ back if you don't like the sound. You say that the PL/Carver gear around where you are is kinda pricy to be takin' a chance on. Well here ya go.:dunno: You can judge for yourself. Plus they will hook it up for ya so you can hear before you buy. Sweet. :yes:
I have had my work done by a local tech that specializes in PL/Carver gear so if you want to pm me I will get you his name and #.
Keep us posted.
 
"Flame" Linear came from the first generation Model 700 used as stage amps for bands. The heat sinks were too small. Bob pushed the Hell out of the power and could only get the "reject" outputs that GM didn't want.

I think it was Pink Floyd that had them catch on fire.

The 700 was the competitor to the crown DC300 amps of the time.
If you ever lifted a 700 and a DC300, you KNOW the 700 was not beefy enough.
The 700B is a different story, beefed up. Check ebay prices and you'll see the preference.

Bands loved them, since you can quickly change out the outputs from the back.

ANYWAY, back to the OP question.
Excellent pieces, very good price. Snag them.
 
Well alright, point made then. I definitely think they look cool. But as far as value, when I looked there was only one on the Bay that was more than the asking price. Saw two others sold for around $100 on the amp, prices on the preamp are kind of all over. Just curious, why is the amp worth so little especially in comparison to the preamp? I know price doesn't dictate everything, but I'm a bit curious why an amp like that sells for low prices on average when other amps like it of that age would be far more pricey.

Is it the build quality? Strange design? I always like to understand why things are priced what they are - high price due to reputation, or due to build quality? Low price due to poor build quality or a brand that doesn't sell for as much? A bit of online searching showed some other folks who said Phase Linear was pro audio stuff, not really home audio level. I believe you guys when you say it sounds good, but this is always something that bothers me a bit when a brand teeters on being considered either - much like Crown. I've always wondered this about Carver's equipment in general, but why is it always so small and lightweight compared to others? Whereas everyone else would need a lot heavier PS and other guts the Carver gear is always well below the weight of its competitors. Once I was looking at a Theater Grand Sunfire amplifier that was 200 watts x 5 I believe and it weighed a paltry 34 lbs IIRC. Any one else who made an amp with that claim would weigh 50-75 lbs.

I just want to be able to debunk or understand all this so the next time people tell me this stuff about Carver things I can see why they think it. Is it because the performance is higher than their price indicates? I remember reading about the tube gear Carver made that was made to sound like Conrad Johnson and actually did for far less money. All super interesting stuff, I'd like to hear more if anyone knows more.
 
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Bob Carver is considered a genius as far as audio goes. Or nuts, although I haven't ever read that his methods are BS.
He's also sort of slippery and shifty.
I've spoken to former employees and heard some not-so-good things about how he runs a company.
That's the reason he seem to be always starting new companies.
Phase Linear->Carver->SunFire...

His stuff pushes the limits and the science.
When you're out on the edge, things can get "edgy".
The Phase Linear 700 saw a lot of use for large bands in concert.
Pink Floyd kept them cool with dry ice.

His stuff can be complicated and difficult to work on (so I'm led to believe).

The market just now is hosed. It doesn't seem like much is moving.
A "cheap" deal on ebay may not mean anything.
Either everyone missed the sale or the active buyers at the time were lame.
(It doesn't seem to happen when I'M shopping!)

A lot on ebay depends on the listing and condition and seller and shipping.
Things that are supposedly fully tested/service and/or restored command a premium price. There are not many vintage gear fixers out there. There are not many ebay sellers that really know what they are selling or how to pack it. There are a lot of bad slang names for ebay around here due to the lousy deals or poor packing that has occurred.

FWIW, Phase Linear was considered one of the best lines back in the day. The fact that the gear is still around and re-selling testifies to its quality.

Sound quality? Well, that's up to you and your ears and your music and your room.
There are "fan boys" for all sorts of gear around here. And anti-fans too.

Are they asking $200 for both? That's cheap for a retail setting.

Scores must be found at yard sales and thrift stores and usually fixed or serviced.

I'm sure some "google" time and a little reading will enlighten you on the history of Phase Linear.
 
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Vistance said:
Well alright, point made then. I definitely think they look cool. But as far as value, when I looked there was only one on the Bay that was more than the asking price. Saw two others sold for around $100 on the amp, prices on the preamp are kind of all over. Just curious, why is the amp worth so little especially in comparison to the preamp? I know price doesn't dictate everything, but I'm a bit curious why an amp like that sells for low prices on average when other amps like it of that age would be far more pricey.

Is it the build quality? Strange design? I always like to understand why things are priced what they are - high price due to reputation, or due to build quality? Low price due to poor build quality or a brand that doesn't sell for as much? A bit of online searching showed some other folks who said Phase Linear was pro audio stuff, not really home audio level. I believe you guys when you say it sounds good, but this is always something that bothers me a bit when a brand teeters on being considered either - much like Crown. I've always wondered this about Carver's equipment in general, but why is it always so small and lightweight compared to others? Whereas everyone else would need a lot heavier PS and other guts the Carver gear is always well below the weight of its competitors. Once I was looking at a Theater Grand Sunfire amplifier that was 200 watts x 5 I believe and it weighed a paltry 34 lbs IIRC. Any one else who made an amp with that claim would weigh 50-75 lbs.

I just want to be able to debunk or understand all this so the next time people tell me this stuff about Carver things I can see why they think it. Is it because the performance is higher than their price indicates? I remember reading about the tube gear Carver made that was made to sound like Conrad Johnson and actually did for far less money. All super interesting stuff, I'd like to hear more if anyone knows more.
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Wow lots of questions! :D

First off not sure that 3 sold amps can determine an accurate average selling price, 1 amp has a SS number engraved on the face and rust spots and was untested. The 2nd amp was listed by a fellow that has a hard time with the English language that alone can scare off bidders with very little extra info on specs etc in the listing, poorly done listings never sell for much. The 3rd and final amp listing was written well had specs and info and was being sold as working it sold for $275.00

On the Preamp I seen no sold listings to get an average price, one that did not have any bids yet with a low starting price $9.99 and one more that had a BIN price of $400.00 was the only info to work with.

So hard to say what the real difference in price between the amp and preamps truly is.

As far as most of Carvers other amps being lightweight compared to other brands goes you are going to have to research that for yourself, I simply do not have enough time to explain the many reasons why this is and the reasons vary from amp to amp and brand to brand. Sunfire amps are a completely different design than his TFM series amps for example so the reasons for them being lightweight are different. Not all of Bobs amps are lightweight either the Lightstar amps were big heavy brutes for example.

Since they are local to you and the price is low enough that you should be able to easily get your money back if you don't care for the sound buy them then listen keep if you like or re sell if you don't and you are saving shipping costs too which is at least another $50.00 to $100.00 off what they would cost if bought on Ebay so a bargain IMHO.


REGARDS SNOW
 
Thanks guys, I'll go take a listen and see what I think. These guys are usually pretty cool so shouldn't be a biggie to play around with them. Anything to look for that's unique to these two compared to your standard vintage amp?

I've really got a variety of amplifiers to compare them to. H/K PM655, NAD C270 and C350 (The C270 is actually same wattage but far newer), Pioneer A-27, Scott 480A. And here I'm trying to "thin the herd", but I've always been a bit curious of all of Carver's offerings.
 
Vistance said:
Thanks guys, I'll go take a listen and see what I think. These guys are usually pretty cool so shouldn't be a biggie to play around with them. Anything to look for that's unique to these two compared to your standard vintage amp?

I've really got a variety of amplifiers to compare them to. H/K PM655, NAD C270 and C350 (The C270 is actually same wattage but far newer), Pioneer A-27, Scott 480A. And here I'm trying to "thin the herd", but I've always been a bit curious of all of Carver's offerings.
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A LOT is going to depend on what speakers you use.
You can have the best amps on the planet, but if you hook them to crap speakers....they sound like crap.
 
somebody should check back in the 10 years + of AK and find just how many of these 'flame linear' conversations have been held.

i think the basics are that this is 30 and 40 year old electronics which will need anywhere from a little to a lot of re-capping, maintenance, and etc, but when done properly will perform musically and without difficulty for a long time, particularly if not driven to rock club volume

ask me how i know
 
The last "flame linear" I had was an original 400. When it failed, it shot the high voltage DC out of the outputs and up the RCAs. As it was used to power some big subwoofers, they survived. The McIntosh MX110 didn't however.

This is why there were called "flame linears" . . . I'm not sure of the rail voltage of the 700s, but I'm sure it's over 100V. Send 100V DC to a pair of speakers and see what happens.
 
blhagstrom said:
A LOT is going to depend on what speakers you use.
You can have the best amps on the planet, but if you hook them to crap speakers....they sound like crap.
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I really have more of a problem having truly excellent amplifiers than speakers. I've been using some Infinity IL40's as mains in one system, IL10's in another, a pair of Infinity Crescendo CS-3008's, a pair of B&W DM602 S3, Genesis IM-8300's with Servo 12 subwoofer, and JSE Infinite Slope 1.8.

Thing is I've got a desire for the kinds of amps I know are fitting for these speakers, but eesh the cost. Threshold, Krell, Bryston, Accuphase, great amps but not something within the reasonable realm for me unless I just stumble across a super deal. Not sure actually if the Phase Linear gear would be the kind of thing to suit most of those speakers, especially the Genesis and JSE speakers.

But all is for naught. Went out today and they were gone. Disappointed I didn't get to hear them, but I really didn't need another amp so I guess it's fate. Thanks again for the opinions and insight all.
 
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