Toronto Audio Show (Taves)
- Thread starter Bigerik
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RGA
Super Member
Don't give up on the Focal speakers - Bob Houdas who was an recording engineer at Abbey Roads discussed the Focal speakers with me and at the California Audio Show he and another Recording Engineer raised the height of the speakers several inches. I think the issue with them is that they're set with the tweeter on axis to the listener's ear which may measure nicer on the graph but I have found you have to be above or below the tweeter. I'd also rather see some powerful tube or SET amps on these speakers over SS (but then that's true pretty much with any speaker).
Billfort
Addicted Member
It was real nice to roam around Taves with Erik – I see these shows as a great opportunity to see and hear a lot of what is available in this hobby at one location so try to take advantage of them. I tend to avoid drawing hard, sweeping conclusions based on what you hear though; they are temporary set-ups in hotel rooms with product mixes that might be dictated by things other than sonic synergy – and then there is the music being played.
I do want to think some effort is made to make these set-ups sound decent though – with this many potential customers seeing and hearing your products, you'd like to believe the vendors involved are making the best of the situation. The 'situation' was pretty good here too – most of the rooms in the King Edward Hotel are very nice with decent size, shape and good ceiling heights. You did see some efforts towards room tuning but there where certainly some nice sounding systems using nothing more that careful placement.
I won't focus on the stuff I didn't like but taking the above into account and the fact that I was really focusing on the current state of digital playback, here are a few of my thoughts.
My favorite system of the show – Reference 3A Nefes, powered by the new KT120 output Copeland cta405A integrated with a laptop running Jriver, streaming through an exaSound e20 DAC. This was in a large room which might not translate well to a smaller space but this system surprised me with it's dynamics and huge soundstage with lots of depth and a natural presence to the music that I don't think I've ever heard to this degree with good old wav files.
I don't know how important a part each piece played in this comparatively simple system but I saw this maybe $22K mix as the giant-killer of the show. Out of my league price-wise but if this worked as well with the addition of a vinyl front-end plugged in, I'd seriously consider this over anything else I heard there – even the systems at 10x the price.
I do want to think some effort is made to make these set-ups sound decent though – with this many potential customers seeing and hearing your products, you'd like to believe the vendors involved are making the best of the situation. The 'situation' was pretty good here too – most of the rooms in the King Edward Hotel are very nice with decent size, shape and good ceiling heights. You did see some efforts towards room tuning but there where certainly some nice sounding systems using nothing more that careful placement.
I won't focus on the stuff I didn't like but taking the above into account and the fact that I was really focusing on the current state of digital playback, here are a few of my thoughts.
My favorite system of the show – Reference 3A Nefes, powered by the new KT120 output Copeland cta405A integrated with a laptop running Jriver, streaming through an exaSound e20 DAC. This was in a large room which might not translate well to a smaller space but this system surprised me with it's dynamics and huge soundstage with lots of depth and a natural presence to the music that I don't think I've ever heard to this degree with good old wav files.
I don't know how important a part each piece played in this comparatively simple system but I saw this maybe $22K mix as the giant-killer of the show. Out of my league price-wise but if this worked as well with the addition of a vinyl front-end plugged in, I'd seriously consider this over anything else I heard there – even the systems at 10x the price.
Billfort
Addicted Member
I really liked the sound in the 2 coupdefoudre rooms which where both playing non-audiophile approved music when we visited – a breath of fresh air. Simple, well chosen mixes of components that just had me wanting to stay and listen – which didn't seem right with that one single perfectly positioned chair in the room.
The noteworthy system for me here used a Spectral SS amp driving Avalon speakers – pieces that I never cared for on hearing in the past but this seemed a great match. Playing was a vinyl rip to DSD128 via the Luxman DA-06 USB DAC which was also playing beautifully in another room with wav, Apple lossless and DSD64 files. If this was in my price range, I'd be seriously considering this DAC - it sounded wonderful fed by garden-variety laptops, especially with DSD.
We listened to some some hi-rez file demos in the Pass room that where pretty eye opening and as good as 16/44 sounded on that system through a Berkely DAC, it was no match for the high-bitrate version played (apparently the same recording used to generate both). We listened to the high-rez stuff first which was very impressive with a huge, immersive sound-stage, then 16/44 which was much 'smaller' sounding, lacked depth, had certain instruments like bells almost disappear in the mix and had the solid bass underpinning that almost charged the room – gone. This was not subtle on this system.
The noteworthy system for me here used a Spectral SS amp driving Avalon speakers – pieces that I never cared for on hearing in the past but this seemed a great match. Playing was a vinyl rip to DSD128 via the Luxman DA-06 USB DAC which was also playing beautifully in another room with wav, Apple lossless and DSD64 files. If this was in my price range, I'd be seriously considering this DAC - it sounded wonderful fed by garden-variety laptops, especially with DSD.
We listened to some some hi-rez file demos in the Pass room that where pretty eye opening and as good as 16/44 sounded on that system through a Berkely DAC, it was no match for the high-bitrate version played (apparently the same recording used to generate both). We listened to the high-rez stuff first which was very impressive with a huge, immersive sound-stage, then 16/44 which was much 'smaller' sounding, lacked depth, had certain instruments like bells almost disappear in the mix and had the solid bass underpinning that almost charged the room – gone. This was not subtle on this system.
Billfort
Addicted Member
We sat through the exaSound seminar on DAC design and music streaming which was very informative and to me, nicely cut through the shit and separated the sense from the non-sense – even though just one man's (George Klissarov; designer/president of exaSound) view.
GK clearly defined what he sees as the role a DAC should play in good reproduction and what part the computer should play, along with what 'matters' in those 2 focused roles. He also believes music files should be played in their native format – no up-sampling or conversion. There was some Windows vs. Mac discussion (which I'll stay out of) that was quite interesting and even though some of this ran counter to what I've been seeing on various forums, it's hard to argue with the results – these DACs sound fantastic.
We heard wav, DSD64 sourced from old analog tapes and modern digital recordings, DSD128 that was simply recorded straight to DSD128, 8 channels of DSD64 (by far the best I've ever heard surround) and even a cut recorded at DSD256. VERY impressive to my ears and if this is the future of audio, it's pretty damn exciting.
Based on what I heard in this and the 3A room from exaSoound, this would be my DAC if shopping in this price range.
The Sony DAC/file player Erik mentioned – the HAP-Z1ES – is very interesting. Plays most any file up toDSD64 and 128 direct from a built in 1T hard-drive. It doesn't 'stream' from network attached storage but can load files to the internal drive via Ethernet. If you want more than 1T, it supports USB connection of another drive. It looks like it had a nice built-in interface for file selection and has a down-loadable remote control app for Ipads, Android devices, etc.
All file types are up-converted to DSD128 which many feel is a very good way to do this and it sure sounded pretty good – even if this wasn't the kind of system that stood out for me. I have mixed feelings about this piece – seems a great package eliminating the need for fidly-ass computers and if my old SCD-777ES is any indication, Sony sure seems to know how to make DSD sound great. The downside – it's DSD128 whether you like that or not and I have that expensive 777ES sitting in un-usable boat-anchor state right now because it is no longer repairable (thanks Sony). I guess the lack of a transport and SACD laser read-head could be viewed as a good thing with the HAP-Z1ES.
Then there is that AudioNote room – again, a stand-out for it's musicality and just plain comfortable, smooth sound that really was an oasis at this show. I am probably just a sucker for a good 300B amp on the right speakers and one of the AudioNote DACs but I love how this system – and it truly is a complete system – sounds. I'm starting to have some reservations and think what I'm hearing with DSD and in that 3A room might be passing this system by in terms of dynamics, soundstaging and flexibility but damn, does it sound sweet. My second favorite room this year.
GK clearly defined what he sees as the role a DAC should play in good reproduction and what part the computer should play, along with what 'matters' in those 2 focused roles. He also believes music files should be played in their native format – no up-sampling or conversion. There was some Windows vs. Mac discussion (which I'll stay out of) that was quite interesting and even though some of this ran counter to what I've been seeing on various forums, it's hard to argue with the results – these DACs sound fantastic.
We heard wav, DSD64 sourced from old analog tapes and modern digital recordings, DSD128 that was simply recorded straight to DSD128, 8 channels of DSD64 (by far the best I've ever heard surround) and even a cut recorded at DSD256. VERY impressive to my ears and if this is the future of audio, it's pretty damn exciting.
Based on what I heard in this and the 3A room from exaSoound, this would be my DAC if shopping in this price range.
The Sony DAC/file player Erik mentioned – the HAP-Z1ES – is very interesting. Plays most any file up toDSD64 and 128 direct from a built in 1T hard-drive. It doesn't 'stream' from network attached storage but can load files to the internal drive via Ethernet. If you want more than 1T, it supports USB connection of another drive. It looks like it had a nice built-in interface for file selection and has a down-loadable remote control app for Ipads, Android devices, etc.
All file types are up-converted to DSD128 which many feel is a very good way to do this and it sure sounded pretty good – even if this wasn't the kind of system that stood out for me. I have mixed feelings about this piece – seems a great package eliminating the need for fidly-ass computers and if my old SCD-777ES is any indication, Sony sure seems to know how to make DSD sound great. The downside – it's DSD128 whether you like that or not and I have that expensive 777ES sitting in un-usable boat-anchor state right now because it is no longer repairable (thanks Sony). I guess the lack of a transport and SACD laser read-head could be viewed as a good thing with the HAP-Z1ES.
Then there is that AudioNote room – again, a stand-out for it's musicality and just plain comfortable, smooth sound that really was an oasis at this show. I am probably just a sucker for a good 300B amp on the right speakers and one of the AudioNote DACs but I love how this system – and it truly is a complete system – sounds. I'm starting to have some reservations and think what I'm hearing with DSD and in that 3A room might be passing this system by in terms of dynamics, soundstaging and flexibility but damn, does it sound sweet. My second favorite room this year.
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And speaking of blue drivers....
Call me old fashioned, but something about these speakers just does it for me. :yes:
How did they sound?
Paul, that whole system looks like something I could easily live with, on looks, anyway.
Bill, Erik, thanks for posting. Maybe I can join you next year...
Bill, Erik, thanks for posting. Maybe I can join you next year...
Thanks Bill. I figured you would chime in with some good comments.
So which was your favorite room this year then? You mean the Reference 3A? Tough comparison, but I felt the Reference 3A room was just a bit harsher, and not quite as musical. There was some real magic in how the Audio Note system handled voices. I'd like to hear the Reference 3A's with something other than that Copland gear. I bet those 300 Bs would have driven them well.
Very nice. Not as good as the Audio Note system, but I wish I could have spent some more time there to get a better handle on it.
RGA
Super Member
Audio Note is generally not a wow factor kind of room so it's nice to see some people liking their (or better hearing) what it brings to the table. I have not been to TAVES but I wonder what the wall material is made out of. If it is an older building made of brick/concrete or solid walls versus the dreadful walls(practically paper) at the hotel I was during the California Audio Show. The picture here they actually managed to have a corner without some silly air conditioner in the way or a window behind them or air ducts.
I ultimately chose the AN K/Spe over the DeCapo I years back because of the treble and a pretty hefty midrange suckout in the DeCapo. I loved the DeCapo's warmth and deep soundstage but I also had to lean in more to make out the vocal band. The AN K was tighter faster and leaner (more straight up) across recordings so I felt there was less of a speaker signature tied to things. The De Capo sounded quite fine on tube amps or SS and more or less sounded the same with less expensive products (depending how you view that it's good or bad). The K/Spe sounded utterly terrible with my Rotel NAD, Musical Fidelity, Odyssey (really poor with Odyssey) but changed dramatically with the OTO, Wyatech Labs and my Sugden.
To me that means the speaker adapts to the front end gear more which means it contrasts differences more and thus is more of a window to the recording and the quality of the gear ahead of it. The De Capo has the advantage of being warmer and more inviting on a wider array of gear. Since then though Reference 3a has changed the tweeters which may have helped greatly.
I don't know which E they had at TAVES but the version with the Alnico tweeter and woofer really outclasses the regular version which IMO outclass the Kit E. I like the Kit products but I would go with a production K or J over a Kit E. A kit builder can't do the matching process and the drivers used in the Kits are not matched to as tight a tolerance.
I ultimately chose the AN K/Spe over the DeCapo I years back because of the treble and a pretty hefty midrange suckout in the DeCapo. I loved the DeCapo's warmth and deep soundstage but I also had to lean in more to make out the vocal band. The AN K was tighter faster and leaner (more straight up) across recordings so I felt there was less of a speaker signature tied to things. The De Capo sounded quite fine on tube amps or SS and more or less sounded the same with less expensive products (depending how you view that it's good or bad). The K/Spe sounded utterly terrible with my Rotel NAD, Musical Fidelity, Odyssey (really poor with Odyssey) but changed dramatically with the OTO, Wyatech Labs and my Sugden.
To me that means the speaker adapts to the front end gear more which means it contrasts differences more and thus is more of a window to the recording and the quality of the gear ahead of it. The De Capo has the advantage of being warmer and more inviting on a wider array of gear. Since then though Reference 3a has changed the tweeters which may have helped greatly.
I don't know which E they had at TAVES but the version with the Alnico tweeter and woofer really outclasses the regular version which IMO outclass the Kit E. I like the Kit products but I would go with a production K or J over a Kit E. A kit builder can't do the matching process and the drivers used in the Kits are not matched to as tight a tolerance.
Billfort
Addicted Member
I don't know what version of the Es they were using (there is so damn many I can't keep up) but they did not have the external crossovers and the whole system was supposed to be around $35K - so I think they are around the same price as the 3A Nefes we heard.
I have heard the Kit Es in my system (using 300Bs - 2A3 was not enough) which is probably irrelevant - they aren't the 'real' Es and again, who knows what versions we are talking about here. I would say though that a few of the things that I preferred in the Nefes over them - dynamics and image depth - where some of the same things I preferred in my 604s over them.
A pointless exercise for sure as I'm not in the market for either but I'd love to hear these 2 head-to-head in a regular room in the same system with the same source - which if coarse would run counter to the AudioNote whole-system approach.
At that show, these systems where my favorites but this time, 3A did it best for me - could have been as simple as the music played but who knows? Sure was fun listening in that world for few hours though.
I have heard the Kit Es in my system (using 300Bs - 2A3 was not enough) which is probably irrelevant - they aren't the 'real' Es and again, who knows what versions we are talking about here. I would say though that a few of the things that I preferred in the Nefes over them - dynamics and image depth - where some of the same things I preferred in my 604s over them.
A pointless exercise for sure as I'm not in the market for either but I'd love to hear these 2 head-to-head in a regular room in the same system with the same source - which if coarse would run counter to the AudioNote whole-system approach.
At that show, these systems where my favorites but this time, 3A did it best for me - could have been as simple as the music played but who knows? Sure was fun listening in that world for few hours though.
RGA
Super Member
Yes then they don't have Alnico tweeters or woofers and may not have even been the silver wired version. It depends it could be an AN E/Spe (Silver wires) but not HE or it could be the AN E/LX (Copper wired) but with HE driver.
I don;t pay too much attention to soundstaging cues at audio shows - you can't truly get a sense of that because it is mostly recording dependent. I have a Loreena McKennitt track that has bagpipers walking toward you from afar and they sound 15 feet behind the speakers (and my speakers are hard in corners like the picture). So every time I read someone say they don't have image depth I kind of get puzzled. Some speakers may very well always have image depth on every recording all the time - but then that isn't real accurate because most recordings have no depth and that is just a speaker artifact. I usually get annoyed if I am listening to a speaker and I begin to focus on imaging and soundstage. It has taken me out of the music and it usually means it's doing something wrong not right.
Granted you have to take me with a grain of salt. I have owned Audio Note K/Spe, currently own J/Spe, and AX Twos (My favorite under $1200 loudspeaker) and will probably go for the AN E/SPe HE with Alnico upgrades.
After auditioning the Shindo Petrus ($40k preamp) driving ANUK Kegon ($100K monoblock power amps) into the AN E/SPX with Alnico it's really tough to beat - when he put on some Eva Cassidy the vocals were probably the best I've heard from any system but when he put on the Chinese Opera (big massive drums) from a 1:1 master disc it was kind of absurd how big they can go - from tiny to massive with 18 watts.
I love Audio though where one can have an absolute cutting edge technologically advanced DAC in the exaSound DAC and then the positively stone age 18 bit no times oversampling, no error correction, no analog or digital filter DACs from AN and have people place them 1-2.
The DAC 3.1x/II IMO is the interesting price/performance point in the AN DAC range. It's expensive but quality usually is.
I don;t pay too much attention to soundstaging cues at audio shows - you can't truly get a sense of that because it is mostly recording dependent. I have a Loreena McKennitt track that has bagpipers walking toward you from afar and they sound 15 feet behind the speakers (and my speakers are hard in corners like the picture). So every time I read someone say they don't have image depth I kind of get puzzled. Some speakers may very well always have image depth on every recording all the time - but then that isn't real accurate because most recordings have no depth and that is just a speaker artifact. I usually get annoyed if I am listening to a speaker and I begin to focus on imaging and soundstage. It has taken me out of the music and it usually means it's doing something wrong not right.
Granted you have to take me with a grain of salt. I have owned Audio Note K/Spe, currently own J/Spe, and AX Twos (My favorite under $1200 loudspeaker) and will probably go for the AN E/SPe HE with Alnico upgrades.
After auditioning the Shindo Petrus ($40k preamp) driving ANUK Kegon ($100K monoblock power amps) into the AN E/SPX with Alnico it's really tough to beat - when he put on some Eva Cassidy the vocals were probably the best I've heard from any system but when he put on the Chinese Opera (big massive drums) from a 1:1 master disc it was kind of absurd how big they can go - from tiny to massive with 18 watts.
I love Audio though where one can have an absolute cutting edge technologically advanced DAC in the exaSound DAC and then the positively stone age 18 bit no times oversampling, no error correction, no analog or digital filter DACs from AN and have people place them 1-2.
The DAC 3.1x/II IMO is the interesting price/performance point in the AN DAC range. It's expensive but quality usually is.
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