"Expectation bias and plecebo effect are much stronger than people care to admit."

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I think it's interesting also, but it will start an argument. One of the first angry responses will be a reducto ad absurdum argument which will state that if you don't think people can really hear differences in low-end and high-end stereo, maybe they should throw away all their gear, buy a Yorx all-in-one, and never dare to post on AK again.

It used to be fun to join in the slugfest, but I don't take any joy in it anymore. People believe what they want to believe and get very angry when others suggest they might be misled in some way. Not worth it.
 
As JJ explains, it's not misleading, It's human.

I've done it myself, fiddled with an EQ and 'hearing' the changes as the slider moves only to discover the "out" button is depressed. All you can do is laugh at yourself and learn that the mind is very powerful.
 
One of the first angry responses will be a reducto ad absurdum argument which will state that if you don't think people can really hear differences in low-end and high-end stereo, maybe they should throw away all their gear, buy a Yorx all-in-one, and never dare to post on AK again.


Mr Jones... How is that Yorx ?
 
The AK community is wonderful when you have a specific problem and need help. There's always someone who can help and does so generously.

The AK community is good to find out what music people like. I've sought out music of which I was unfamiliar that I learned about here and found new sources of enjoyment.

The AK community is OK if you're in the market for a piece of equipment and want advice. They do better when you ask "of speaker A or speaker B, which to do you think is better?". They don't do so good when asked "what's a good speaker?"


The AK community doesn't do so good on philosophical questions or methods that incrementally may (or may not) improve sound. There's roughly two camps, the "pragmatic" and the "adventurous". They approach sound improvement from fundamentally different perspectives which usually leads to unpleasantness.

I'm trying to concentrate on the things this community is best at and leave the rest to others.
 
The AK community is wonderful when you have a specific problem and need help. There's always someone who can help and does so generously.

The AK community is good to find out what music people like. I've sought out music of which I was unfamiliar that I learned about here and found new sources of enjoyment.

The AK community is OK if you're in the market for a piece of equipment and want advice. They do better when you ask "of speaker A or speaker B, which to do you think is better?". They don't do so good when asked "what's a good speaker?"


The AK community doesn't do so good on philosophical questions or methods that incrementally may (or may not) improve sound. There's roughly two camps, the "pragmatic" and the "adventurous". They approach sound improvement from fundamentally different perspectives which usually leads to unpleasantness.

I'm trying to concentrate on the things this community is best at and leave the rest to others.

Excellent summation! I agree.
 
I typically have the opposite problem. I will be doing some noncritical listening to music in the background while being preoccupied with something else. I will often forget about the source or that I have rotated a new component into the system. In the back of my mind I may start telling myself how a certain passage in the song sounds different (both good and bad).

Slowly this effect may become conscious to the point I may stop what I am doing and take notice. It is only then that I may remember the source is something other than what I thought, or that I had switched a component. I think I am totally capable of subconsciously expecting something to be an improvement (or not) when doing critical listening. It is when I notice something without thinking about it that my determination seems the most credible.
 
There are no lies in Hi-Fi only exaggerated truths.

I don't even think it's that. I think that people become emotionally invested in things they like, and take it as a personal attack if others do not agree with their conclusions. I say that not as a negative thing or to insult others, I think we all do it, no matter what it is we personally prefer.

However, having said that, I also think that the further up the hi-fi ladder one climbs, the more precarious the perch. I do believe that people who invest in ultimate-quality, price-no-object kit to please themselves are keenly aware that they are often subject to ridicule and mockery, and quite naturally tend to develop sensitivity to that. I get it.

This has nothing to do with whether or not the given kit is actually all it is claimed to be; it has to do with how people feel about and treat one another, and I'm as guilty of casting aspersions at the very high-end gear without a valid basis for it as anyone.

I am very much trying to not do that anymore (witness my confession that RCMs are clearly quite good, just stating that I do indeed clean my records in the sink with soap and a paint pad). I don't wish to engage in warfare with those who have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on an RCM, and in reality, I believe that the results of either method are more subjective than objective, so it's down to personal preference.

I have heard top-end gear that left me in awe, and other top-end gear that left me underwhelmed to say the least. I have been astounded by cheap kit that should not sound as good as it does, and had my ears assaulted by cheap gear that is more than worthy of being labeled crap.

In the end, all I really know is that I like some things more than others, and no one is going to agree with my choices, any more than I will agree with theirs. Live and let live and all of that.

As to the whole bit about expectation bias and placebo effect, I know my ears can play tricks on me; really nice ones sometimes. I was listening to a cheap set of Ampex full-range speakers recently and I really liked them. So detailed, so clean, and even the bass seemed more than acceptable for a 5x7 oval driver. Then I switched to a pair of 2-way speakers with 8-inch woofers and my perception just instantly fell apart; the bass in the 8-inch woofers made the Ampex speakers seem thin, reedy, and wholly unacceptable.

So which is it? Are they good or are they crap? It appears that there is no objective answer to that question.

And therein lies the problem. We all have subjective opinions, and we all want them to be objective fact. But they are not, and they never will be. Hopefully we will all learn to live with that notion (it's one I struggle with myself).
 
Wow, that is one annoying video. Managed to make it through about 30 seconds. Hope I didn't miss the important part. (if there is one) I wonder how many of the 136 views actually made it through the whole thing.

The video in the OP does look interesting. Have to set aside some time today to watch it.

The whole thing is the important part!
 

Ja! Natürlich!!!!!
th_casse-mur-briques.gif
 
I have heard top-end gear that left me in awe, and other top-end gear that left me underwhelmed to say the least. I have been astounded by cheap kit that should not sound as good as it does, and had my ears assaulted by cheap gear that is more than worthy of being labeled crap.


I had sex that left me in awe and sex that left me underwhelmed, all with the same girl. The thing is she wore an uniform the first time.

What is BEST? Why do we want THE BEST?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9J1b3MqiX8

EDIT:
(sorry for splitting my post, mods can merge it if its necessary)
 
What is BEST? Why do we want THE BEST?

All kinds of reasons. To enjoy it. To share it with others. To be seen to be able to possess it. And so on.

I think that at a certain level, we also want reassurance from our peers or those whose opinions we value that we have done or achieved something good, worthwhile, laudable.

It's all human nature, right? We all want to be happy, regardless of what it takes for us to be happy. We all want approval in some form from others (even nasty old curmudgeons like me).

Why else declare scroes? Why else talk about the sublime experience of a high-end phono cartridge? Why else discuss the 'best' booze, cars, motorcycles, and so on?

It's just human nature, I think. And nothing particularly wrong with it. The problem comes when we need to have others agree with our choices, some don't, and we let it get up our sleeves.
 
All kinds of reasons. To enjoy it. To share it with others. To be seen to be able to possess it. And so on.

I think that at a certain level, we also want reassurance from our peers or those whose opinions we value that we have done or achieved something good, worthwhile, laudable.

It's all human nature, right? We all want to be happy, regardless of what it takes for us to be happy. We all want approval in some form from others (even nasty old curmudgeons like me).

Why else declare scroes? Why else talk about the sublime experience of a high-end phono cartridge? Why else discuss the 'best' booze, cars, motorcycles, and so on?

It's just human nature, I think. And nothing particularly wrong with it. The problem comes when we need to have others agree with our choices, some don't, and we let it get up our sleeves.

Excellent take on "Why we want THE BEST?" :thmbsp:

Now getting back on this thread main topic "What is BEST?"

This is the interesting one to tackle I think. Thoughts?
 
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