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McIntosh tubed vs. McIntosh solid-state

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mulester7

mulester7

LIVE from Lake Ouachita
.....I am trying to solicit comments concerning differences "heard" between McIntosh solid-state pre-amps going up against McIntosh tubed pre-amps....and, taking it further with a McIntosh tubed pre-amp being paired with McIntosh tubed amps or McIntosh solid-state amps....I have heard that a McIntosh tubed pre-amp gives 90% of the tubed sound when paired with a McIntosh tubed amp....is this true?.....
 
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I use a McIntosh C-28 ss pre-amp. That being said, I also switch between a mint MC-240 and a SS MC-2105 amp. I honestly cant't tell the difference between the sound of the two amps! I mentioned this to Ron C. of McIntosh and he said that is as it should be!
M Bell
 
M Bell said:
I use a McIntosh C-28 ss pre-amp. That being said, I also switch between a mint MC-240 and a SS MC-2105 amp. I honestly cant't tell the difference between the sound of the two amps! I mentioned this to Ron C. of McIntosh and he said that is as it should be!
M Bell
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.....thanks for the reply, MBell....so McIntosh tubed sound evidently comes from a Mac tubed pre?....are there any Mac tubed pre-amp owners here?....I'm excited for some answers here, see?... :banana:
 
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.....here's what could be the difference with tubed equipment, Gentlemen....I suspect it's either easier, or more effective, to apply at least the effect, of "compression" on a fat signal, at the pre-amp level....compression smooths rough edges and maketh for wonderful blend....don't have a clue what's done, but the damping factor is low with McIntosh, lending to fat signals.....
 
mulester7 said:
.....thanks for the reply, MBell....so McIntosh tubed sound evidently comes from a Mac tubed pre?....in there any Mac tubed pre-amp owners here?....I'm excited for some answers here, see?... :banana:
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I don't know about that. The 2105 is almost the same design as the Mc2100. The difference being the chasis. Both of these are 1st generation SS amps from McIntosh. Both of these amps have a very warm tube like sound. The autoformers are similar. This is an opinion shared by many I believe. Of course I could be totaly wrong about this :tears: Mule, why don't you just go pick up an older C20 or C22. If you don't like it, heck I know you could sell it for what you paid.......... or a little cheaper to a good friend like :D
 
MacmanNM said:
I don't know about that. The 2105 is almost the same design as the Mc2100. The difference being the chasis. Both of these are 1st generation SS amps from McIntosh. Both of these amps have a very warm tube like sound. The autoformers are similar. This is an opinion shared by many I believe. Of course I could be totaly wrong about this :tears: Mule, why don't you just go pick up an older C20 or C22. If you don't like it, heck I know you could sell it for what you paid.......... or a little cheaper to a good friend like :D
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.....Mac, the guy in Morro Bay that makes my main's regiment speakers told me the 2105 was too-transistorized sounding, I don't know....the 2105 must go to the shop anyway, and I preferred using the 2200 on the front mains back when I could actually hear, haha....no, it's simply, "more live sounding" than the 2105....but, just like before, the 2105 was plenty good enough to keep the sound chamber much better than a K2 on the surrounds....to the shop, click, click....Guys, MacmanNM is a bbq'in' somebody....got that biggest one from Sam's....nothing but silver big as my lean-to shed.....
 
MacmanNM said:
The autoformers are similar
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.....here's a tidbit on autoformers....I got lotsa' National minutes, and I talked to a guy in the lab, on duty, at McIntosh about 6 months ago....couldn't tell ya' his name at gunpoint....he said the autoformer had nothing to do with the sound quality and was only a direct path to ground to save your speakers....but, there are those different posts, and if you have a 6 ohm speaker, should you go off 4 or 8 on the + posts?....does it make any difference to fire 4 ohm bullets, or are they the same bullets as the 8 post?....rather, will the amp section see the actual ohmage-load out in the bushes with either post?....you heavy-hitters get off them cots and let's talk here......
 
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mulester7 said:
.....here's a tidbit on autoformers....I got lotsa' National minutes, and I talked to a guy in the lab, on duty, at McIntosh about 6 months ago....couldn't tell ya' his name at gunpoint....he said the autoformer had nothing to do with the sound quality and was only a direct path to ground to save your speakers....but, there are those different posts, and if you have a 6 ohm speaker, should you go off 4 or 8 on the + posts?....does it make any difference to fire 4 ohm bullets, or are they the same bullets as the 8 post?....rather, will the amp section see the actual ohmage-load out in the bushes with either post?....you heavy-hitters get off them cots and let's talk here......
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Oh, ok. Well I don't know if it is the autoformers, but I do know that the 2100 and 2105 are very smooth. I like them a lot. My dad has a set of RTR's that he bought in the 70's, not bad speakers, but a bit bright. He is running a 2100 and it really seems to have smoothed it out. I had a pair of Mc40's about 15yrs ago ( I should be shot for giving them away for $100 /pair) and they were pretty darn smooth too.
 
MacmanNM said:
Oh, ok. Well I don't know if it is the autoformers, but I do know that the 2100 and 2105 are very smooth. I like them a lot. My dad has a set of RTR's that he bought in the 70's, not bad speakers, but a bit bright. He is running a 2100 and it really seems to have smoothed it out. I had a pair of Mc40's about 15yrs ago ( I should be shot for giving them away for $100 /pair) and they were pretty darn smooth too.
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.....Mac, I hear ya'....I believe McIntosh solid-state pre's/amps smooth a fair amount, but I believe a McIntosh tubed pre would set standards on smoothing....used with, at least, McIntosh solid-state amps....Guys, if some doctor ever tells you you've got three minutes to live and asks you if there's anything he can do, tell him to boil you an egg, think positive.....quiet bunch....is this an audio site or an oil painting?.......
 
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I have a pair of MC60's and an MC250 that I use in the warmer summer months. While they sound very, very similar to each other, during extended listening the MC60's seem to make the music/vocals sound more alive. The 250 produces less heat and does not have the annoying turn off thump of the tube amps. The 250 sounds much more tube like than other Mac amps that I have had...MC754 and MC2200.
 
The autoformer has a whole lot to do with the sound quality of McIntosh amps. The Autoformer allows the output section to be run at the most linear point, which allows the highest power and lowest distortion with the least amount of feedback. This usually results in an optimized impedance of somewhere between 2 or 3 ohms. The autoformer is then wound in a ratio which allows the load to match 2,4, or 8 ohm speakers.
The Autoformer results in the best performance of the output transistors, full power with any speaker or 'all the power you pay for', ultra low distortion, very high signal to noise, wide bandwidth and low phase shift.

Thanks,
Ron-c
 
ron-c said:
The autoformer has a whole lot to do with the sound quality of McIntosh amps. The Autoformer allows the output section to be run at the most linear point, which allows the highest power and lowest distortion with the least amount of feedback. This usually results in an optimized impedance of somewhere between 2 or 3 ohms. The autoformer is then wound in a ratio which allows the load to match 2,4, or 8 ohm speakers.
The Autoformer results in the best performance of the output transistors, full power with any speaker or 'all the power you pay for', ultra low distortion, very high signal to noise, wide bandwidth and low phase shift.

Thanks,
Ron-c
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That must be true, but even the McIntosh amps without autoformer have the "mac sound" to me and they are great. You guys sure know how to make an amp :thmbsp:

BTW, I always wondered how can the MC207's "Dynamic Power Manager Circuit" replace an autoformer?
 
I had a Mc 502 (not one of the more popular or powerful ss amps from McIntosh) Guys, it sounded great. I replaced it with a pair of Mc 30's. They sounded even better. But, you can find a 502 for about 500 bucks and the 30's will set you back about 2000.00. Do the 30's sound 1500 dollars better? I'm not going to admit that they don't. The 30's have a way more "cool" factor, but that little 50 wpc ss amp came darn close to the sound. My pre was a ss C28. It and the 502 burned up in a house fire. The 30's are being rebuilt by Terry DeWick and I scored a MX 110 to pair up with them so we'll see how that sounds. Maybe using a ss pre-amp with both the ss amp and the tube amps made them sound closer to each other but, either way it sounded really good.
 
I have both the MC275 and The MC2500 and in a blind test,if they both were warmed up for 1/2 hour to forty five min. it would,for me any how,hard to tell them apart.
 
ron-c said:
The autoformer has a whole lot to do with the sound quality of McIntosh amps. The Autoformer allows the output section to be run at the most linear point, which allows the highest power and lowest distortion with the least amount of feedback. This usually results in an optimized impedance of somewhere between 2 or 3 ohms. The autoformer is then wound in a ratio which allows the load to match 2,4, or 8 ohm speakers.
The Autoformer results in the best performance of the output transistors, full power with any speaker or 'all the power you pay for', ultra low distortion, very high signal to noise, wide bandwidth and low phase shift.

Thanks,
Ron-c
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.....aaahh, so the sound quality is only affected if the wrong + posts are used, and the mere presence of the autoformer says there's a coil in the mix for the betterment....I thank you for this response, RonC........
 
chrisf said:
I have both the MC275 and The MC2500 and in a blind test,if they both were warmed up for 1/2 hour to forty five min. it would,for me any how,hard to tell them apart.
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.....I've found a larger pool of continuous watts says the bass will be tighter and more defined, but what I look for is a different "voice" from the larger pool in the mids and highs....more resolvement in the highs, mainly......
 
I think much of this depends on your speakers. It will matter more on some vs. others.

On mine (super revealing Belle Klipsch), I'll take Mac tubes every time. Especially if it is MC30s as power amps. When comparing the MC30 with the SS versions (MC250/2100/2505), the SS has the general "feel and body" of sound as the tube amps do......but the DETAILS come across different. The midrange is much more "alive/lifelike" with properly tube rolled 30s and is grain free - and has a more transparent and fluid quality. This, of course would be comparing units that have been properly updated/recapped as necessary.

The bass response also has a bit different feel - the SS is a bit tighter/more authoritative, the tubes are a bit more "rounded/loose". Again, tube rolling allows for some tweaking here.....but there are minor differences in either case.

When you own horns, EVERYTHING makes a difference. Amps, tubes (and yes, tubes DO matter on horns - there isn't a tube on an MC30 that doesn't make a difference in my system), even the parts used in the crossovers make a difference. The parts used to rebuild the amps made a difference, too. How much difference there will be in your system will be much dependent on your speakers - and your ears.

The Mac amps are similar, but they are NOT necessarily the same. Even amongst the vintage tube amps, you have the KT88 based 60's vs the 6L6 based 30s and 240, as well as the MC225 (7591 outputs, I believe). So there will be minor differences here too, even though in theory they should sound the same.

On preamps, I'm not experienced in Mac SS preamps, but the preamp will bear a big responsibility in the sonic signature of your system. I usually encourage those wanting to get just one component as tube to get a tube PREAMP first, as this will give your system that tube "roundedness" even when used with a SS amp. I would be even more discriminating here - it won't matter what amps you use if you aren't satisfied with the preamp. It's the "garbage in-garbage out" theory.

BTW - what speakers are you using??
 
.....great post, Audible Nectar, with great info....I believe having a consistent sonic signature in the theater chamber is vital if you're after a chamber-filling defined "presence"....now we're getting into what McIntosh pre and power do best...."live presence" is my goal, and always has been....I don't know what took me away from the Mac amps, but I'm glad for the pilgrimage to be able to appreciate the Mac amps fully now....may have a K2 sale, I don't know....have 4....doesn't appear they will be able to outdo the Earthquake on pushing five channels of my bass seperates for the best voice, neithern....my bass seperates, that's a different topic for another time, with both SVS B4 subs paralleled on one channel of Earthquake, sounds reeeal good....Audible Nectar, my main's regiment speakers are made by a guy named Bob Gross....he has been building speakers in his garage for about 30 years, and it may be more than that....he is in his mid-60's, and is retired from being a court-reporter in Bakersfield....he and his wife moved into a turn-key mansion in Morro Bay about two years ago right on the Pacific, and he still makes speakers....he has made about all the audio shows for years, and is unofficially considered Mr. Crossover by many in the industry....his speakers have the best low-mids up I have ever heard, you should listen to quality piano music through them....his brand is called Speaker Art....his floor standing transmission-line main's are amazingly resolved in the highs, and his bookshelf speakers have magical resolvement in the mids....surrounding, with the bookshelves against the mains, brings an amazing mixture of "live presence", especially with McIntosh's compressed and resolved pfat signals, that's all I know, I'll go quietly....here is a link to his bookshelves, which measure 23 tall, 11 wide, 13 deep, and constitute 52 pounds a throw....I'll have to get a link to a show, for you to be able to see the floor stander mains later.....

http://www.speakerart.com/
 
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.....anyone else interested in a Brand-New "McIntosh C2200 Tubed Pre-Amplifier"?, didn't that look good?....strength presented to McIntosh Hdqr's directly could bring a substantial reduction, especially were it for a forum-website's members....to be discussed much....and I don't see why it wouldn't be LAUDED, do you?....it's going to be an even pfatter signal that is wonderfully resolved, and yes, now we're talkin' "live presence", huge.....attention....don't ignore the needs of your family to buy anything for "your" hobby.....I say, that's a two-wheeler for everybody....and engines bring trouble, so pedal to work safely if possible, but make sure, you pedal to play with your kids around the neighborhood....neither side will ever forget it....seriously, I strongly suspect, McIntosh would "look" at their product being lifted high at a McIntosh Site....oops, Forum, haha....I have set a long range goal of a McIntosh C2200, latest model, New....but....I suspect it ain't gonna' be that long....got no house payment, got no car payment, jes' lay in 'de sun all day....who else?....kick it around......
 
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