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Is "fully balanced" just a hype?

anton

anton

Active Member
I didn't say "rip off" though in many way I feel like it. I bought MC402 (for much more $$ than I could pay for any old not fully balanced Mac amp) mostly for "fully balanced design" only to fnd out that it sounds so much better with RCA connection that's it's not even funny. The sound with XLR in balanced mode is sure clear but small, sterile and digital. My C46-402 combo sounded noticebly worse than my old 6900. The sound with RCA in unbalanced mode is incredible - huge, powerful, open, warm. Unbalanced 402 has the "breath of life" that Steve Hoffman described in his review of this amp. Balanced it simply never sounds right. I've done lots of cable experiments with different cables over the last few days and never recaptured the lost magic until I plugged RCA back in. If anyone wonders if not-fully-balanced C46 is too blame I tried C500T before and had the same crappy results though the same C500T made the speakers dissapear connected via RCA into 6900. My obsession with "fully balanced" components is over I hope that experience of mine will sober some of us still ready to blow big bucks for "fully balanced" myth...
 
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Balanced makes sense if source, pre-amp and amp are balanced...in other words the complete signal path.

Mixing balanced and unbalanced is only useful if one is confronted with long cable runs.
Depending on the design the conversion is done with unity gain opamps or transformers.

With a C46 pre-amp, use the rca unbalanced approach...seems that works for you.
With a C200, C500, C1000 balanced is definitely the way to go.
 
Anton,

The purpose of Balanced is not to "Alter" the sound in any way. There is no reason an unbalanced connection will sound different from a balanced connection. No one ever said this.

What balanced offers, is protection against interference (better isolation), better grounding, a 6db gain, and is recommended when using longer runs. Otherwise, there are plenty of people who have the choice and use RCA and are happy.

There has never been any belief by anyone to my knowledge that there is a difference of sound.
 
Jem666 said:
Balanced makes sense if source, pre-amp and amp are balanced...in other words the complete signal path.

Mixing balanced and unbalanced is only useful if one is confronted with long cable runs.
Depending on the design the conversion is done with unity gain opamps or transformers.

With a C46 pre-amp, use the rca unbalanced approach...seems that works for you.
With a C200, C500, C1000 balanced is definitely the way to go.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure - C500 sounded pretty crappy with 402 with expencive (~$1000 a piece) XLR's throughout. The same C500 was a revelation connected to 6900 via RCA. Go figure!
 
Anton,

Go with what works for you...your ears are the one and only true judge and jury.

In my previous post I should have been more specific...when I talk about balanced, I refer to balanced connections.

The quad balanced design of the MC402, is a smart way of reducing distortion, whether you use rca or balanced connections...that doesn't change the way the amp works.

What I am going to write now is highly subjective and personal.
I am not a fan of connecting a non balanced pre-amp with a balanced amp through XLR...RCA does sound much better in this case..is this because of the conversion from unbalanced to balanced...maybe...I just doesn't work for me. On the other hand the MDA1000, C1000, MC501 with XLR throughout works wonders for me.

One final remark...don't look for salvation in "expensive = better" cables...the whole point of XLR, save from good mechanical construction, is that it really doesn't matter...because influences, if any, are cancelled out.

I will buy cables for good mechanical construction and shielding...but my personal experience is that whenever I try some expensive "save the day" cable...it takes away from the sound...but once again YMMV.

If the C500 and MC402 with balanced IC sounded crappy...that could mean several things
- This setup reveals something you did not hear before...that could be source or speakers
- Some component was faulty...it does happen, even with McIntosh
- It sounds so different to you to the point it sounds alien

I don't know what your options are...but try the MCD301, C500 SS and MC402 with XLR throughout...and use standard run of the mill XLR cables...give it some days, to adjust to the sound...then switch back to your old setup and see what happens.

hope it works out for you

Jacques
 
I am glad I read this because I was thinking about replacing my shielded RCA cables with balanced cables; not that the RCA sounds bad but because I thought the XLR cables would somehow be better. I will stick to my RCA's as my C220/MC252 is not a fully balanced set up.
 
Jem666 said:
Anton,

Go with what works for you...your ears are the one and only true judge and jury.

In my previous post I should have been more specific...when I talk about balanced, I refer to balanced connections.

The quad balanced design of the MC402, is a smart way of reducing distortion, whether you use rca or balanced connections...that doesn't change the way the amp works.

What I am going to write now is highly subjective and personal.
I am not a fan of connecting a non balanced pre-amp with a balanced amp through XLR...RCA does sound much better in this case..is this because of the conversion from unbalanced to balanced...maybe...I just doesn't work for me.

Jacques
Click to expand...

I have a few questions -

I am not clear on why using a balance connection between a non balanced pre amp and a balanced amp cause issues? I thought the main point of using balanced connections was noise elimination - especially over long cable runs.

If you have a balance pre amp and balanced power amp would you degrade the sound with unbalanced cables? Connecting an unbalanced cable between balanced amps doesn't change the way the amps work - right?

Balanced amps will still be balanced with RCA cables, and an amp that is not fully balanced will still not be fully balanced with balanced cables connected.

I will have to switch out the cables between my pre and power amp and listen. Like you say it is subjective and personal.
 
anton said:
I didn't say "rip off" though in many way I feel like it. I bought MC402 (for much more $$ than I could pay for any old not fully balanced Mac amp) mostly for "fully balanced design" only to fnd out that it sounds so much better with RCA connection that's it's not even funny. The sound with XLR in balanced mode is sure clear but small, sterile and digital. My C46-402 combo sounded noticebly worse than my old 6900. The sound with RCA in unbalanced mode is incredible - huge, powerful, open, warm. Unbalanced 402 has the "breath of life" that Steve Hoffman described in his review of this amp. Balanced it simply never sounds right. I've done lots of cable experiments with different cables over the last few days and never recaptured the lost magic until I plugged RCA back in. If anyone wonders if not-fully-balanced C46 is too blame I tried C500T before and had the same crappy results though the same C500T made the speakers dissapear connected via RCA into 6900. My obsession with "fully balanced" components is over I hope that experience of mine will sober some of us still ready to blow big bucks for "fully balanced" myth...
Click to expand...

Anton,

I think I recall reading your earlier posts when you originally brought the MC402 home. I find it so hard to believe that you're not just floored by the thing -- your system should slam. In any event, someone may have already recommended this but, do you have the very small input switch on the back of the amplifier set to balanced when you are running balanced cables from your preamplifier into the MC402? The other thing I was wondering is if the dealer can come to your home to listen and respond to your comments.

Good luck
 
chuckworkb said:
I have a few questions -

I am not clear on why using a balance connection between a non balanced pre amp and a balanced amp cause issues? I thought the main point of using balanced connections was noise elimination - especially over long cable runs.
Click to expand...
:yes: for long cable runs...with short cable runs, using XLR between a balanced and non balanced component, will only add extra circuitry namely unity gain OpAmps or a transformer.

chuckworkb said:
If you have a balance pre amp and balanced power amp would you degrade the sound with unbalanced cables?
Click to expand...
:scratch2: degradation is only an issue when poorly designed and implemented circuits are used, but you are not taking advantage of a complete balanced signal path...and you are adding unnecessary circuits in the signal path.

chuckworkb said:
Connecting an unbalanced cable between balanced amps doesn't change the way the amps work - right?
Click to expand...
:yes: euh...no, it doesn't change the way the amp works...I guess, there is a lot of confusion about this.

chuckworkb said:
Balanced amps will still be balanced with RCA cables, and an amp that is not fully balanced will still not be fully balanced with balanced cables connected.
Click to expand...
:yes: you got that right.

One has to take into account that in a professional studio, all connections are XLR...and they sure don't use 1000$ cables.
 
There are many ways to go from a balanced to unbalanced signal (or vice-versa), some active, some passive but none that I have heard is neutral.
So if it is true that a balanced connection and unbalanced will "sound" the same, each time you convert the signal one way or the other it will get altered sometime in a minor fashion, sometime in a mjor fashion. In some cases it might even get improved.

I do not know how the conversion is done in the MC402, but well designed transformer coupled conversion stages will do exactly what was described (adding body, weight and smoothness).

One of the most known example is Esoteric gear - all players from the top down to the X05 are fully balanced using a DA channel for each signal leg (so 4 dac channels total and they sound pretty poor in single ended connection mode (because their balanced to single ended conversion module is notoriously poor) - their models from the SA60 down are single ended in design and their XLR connections suck (again because the re-balancing of the signal is not particularly well done).

Now, my experience with McIntosh is that they are among the pieces of gear where the balanced/unbalanced connections sound very similar - you can find minor differences, but I have heard nothing like what you describe.

Are you comparing XLR vs RCA with the exact same cable brand/model/geometry? You may have just hit on a non-synergetic match on the XLR and a very good one on the RCA (that'd be bad luck but not impossible I guess).

The last element of food for thoughts, is whether when you run balanced from the MCD301 to the MC402 through the C46 you are actually hearing the limitations of the MCD301, but when you insert a balanced to RCA (in the C46) and back (in the MC402) convertion you actually benefit from a smoothing effect introduced by those 2 convertion steps...
If you get a chance, borrow an MCD500 and see if the same remains true (harsher digital sound in balanced mode throughout). Also if you can run this experiment, then try the MCD500 direct into the MC402 to see if what you do not like is not happening in the C46...

My experience over the years is that one configuration vs the other does not really atter as long as you avoid converstions back and forth. Since my Esoteric sounds so much better balanced I run a balanced system throughout most of the time and that's how I get the best results.
 
I have all mine connected in XLR. I dont have balanced amps and it works fine here:thmbsp:. I do belive that XLR cabling have more dynamic headroom or signal to noise ratio then RCA.
When I connected XLR thru MC275 instead of RCA it sounds better.
When I changed the C46 to C2300 it sounds better.
Thanks
 
When my system went fully balanced (C1000-MC501s and later MDA1000-MC501s) there was a HUGE improvement. The improvement for CD playback was so huge that I decided to sell my turntable and LPs. On well recorded/mastered CDs the sound is beautiful with amazing detail and imaging.

But there is a downside. The fully balanced system is much more revealing of poorly recorded/mastered CDs. Many of my favorite CDs are unlistenable with a system this revealing. I find CDs from FIM, Chesky, Linn, Naim, MFSL, DCC, Mapleshade, and many regular issue well mastered CDs sound fantastic with my fully balanced system.

Anton,

What source material are you using? If it is regular issue CDs that have been in your collection for years this could be your problem. Many of those CDs will sound much better on a less revealing system.
 
Anton,
I read that your speakers has maximal power rating of 250 Watts, maybe you should try MC252 instead.
 
McTwins, with all due respect that's probably not the best thing to do.
Power ratings for speakers usually refer to the acceptable sustained power input (not impulse acceptable power) but I have not checked for the SF.

First if you listen to close to 250 watt of sustained power in a household environment I fear for your listening capability long term (actually short term too...).

But even if you did, then with a MC252 you'd be at the amplifier's limit in power delivery and therefore entering distortion zone with severe risk of damaging the tweeters first and the woofers if you insist too long...

The MC402 at the same power delivery level have more headroom and operate further away from their distortion point. So they are actually safer for the speakers.

Again, listening at 250 watt sustained level in a typical house environment is auditory suicide but if that's what you enjoy, then doing it with an amp capable of far more power is actually a safer bet.
 
I had similar experiences myself.

Here's the way I see it:

1) As others have mentioned, bal->unbal (and viceversa) conversions include some extra circuitry.

2) Extra circuitry is going to change the sound to some extent - it will introduce some "distortion" of the original signal.

3) Some "distortion" sound bad, but some can sound euphonious (i.e. pleasing to the ear).

I think what you are experiencing (and what I experienced myself) is a combination of distortions that sounds more pleasing to the ear.

In my office system (where I often listen through headphones), I intentionally added a completely unnecessary tube buffer because it adds some extra circuitry and distortion (even order harmonics I would guesss) that make the sound richer and more pleasing.

Alberto
 
I would double check and make certain that the small balance/unbalanced switch on the back of the amp is set to the correct position....:scratch2:
 
FB101 said:
McTwins, with all due respect that's probably not the best thing to do.
Power ratings for speakers usually refer to the acceptable sustained power input (not impulse acceptable power) but I have not checked for the SF.

First if you listen to close to 250 watt of sustained power in a household environment I fear for your listening capability long term (actually short term too...).

But even if you did, then with a MC252 you'd be at the amplifier's limit in power delivery and therefore entering distortion zone with severe risk of damaging the tweeters first and the woofers if you insist too long...

The MC402 at the same power delivery level have more headroom and operate further away from their distortion point. So they are actually safer for the speakers.

Again, listening at 250 watt sustained level in a typical house environment is auditory suicide but if that's what you enjoy, then doing it with an amp capable of far more power is actually a safer bet.
Click to expand...

Maybe you right, I only mean if MC402 has too much power for those speaker. McIntosh has powergaurd and protects the tweeter:thmbsp:.
But what do I now:scratch2: I have run biamp MC252 with mine speaker 250 watts per modul including powergaurds light on for severel hours, hasent broken anything yet:music:.

Well, this is mine normal environmental listening room:yes:.
 
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I add my contribution to the debate. My stereo system is completely balanced. The digital connection between MCD and MDA 1000 is balanced. The link between MDA and C1000T is balanced as between the C1000T and amplifiers MC501. I have already ordered the MCD 500 and he too will be connected balanced. I tried several times unbalanced solutions but I have never liked. The sound of fully balanced is the right mix of transparency, detail and a bit of heat. Not to return back ever.
 
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