New Tube Headphone Amp - Kind of :)

Will the wonders ever cease with the TubeDAC-09. Thought it had enough features already ?, well read on.

A customer has some high efficiency AT ATH A700 headphones, 102db/mW, 64 Ohm headphones which he couldn't find a right headphone volume control setting. Being a bit of a tech he decided to try hooking up his headphones to the tube output RCA jacks and was very happy with the results.

I finally got some adapters to get my Sennheiser HD540 Reference II cans ( 94db, 300 Ohm) hooked up and holy crap, a totally different headphone presentation, tons of air and life. The build in SS headphone amp which many think is amazing is still great but nothing like this, wait till you hear your headphones thru the tube output jacks, stunning !!

I'll be testing it over the next few days to make sure the TubeDAC-09 can handle it, if you need 2 or 3 o'clock on the volume to get decent level with your headphones it might be a problem for the power supply or your headphones, but so far no problem with mine cranked to 3 o'clock for a few hours now. With my HD540s my range is around 10 to 11 for nominal and 12 to 2 likely with beer

Just tried the SS outputs, not quite enough gain for the HD540s if having beer, but again different from the built in headphone amp.

Go grab a stereo rca to headphone adapter, I got mine at The Source and try it and let is know what you think with your cans

I like it when things like this happen.

Cheers,
Ian

I'll have to give it a try with my MBQuart's. I'm sure I have an adapter laying around somewhere.

wait... hold the phone. The headphone out isn't tubed already?

I bought this thing because I wanted a nice tubed headphone amp. I was one of the very first DAC09 customers.

I could not stand the harsh output from the headphone port, and I tried everything, I placed it in preamp mode, and it worked alright as a tubed preamp to a Presonus headphone amp, as well as it worked connected to my Mackie mixer, but the headphone out isn't on the tube circuit!!??!!!?!?!?


The headphone amp "feature" was one of the MAIN selling points. It is sold so that the giant volume knob only works on 'phones, for peat's sake! It screams "I am a headphone amp!" when you look at it, or begin using it.

That it does not use the tube circuit for the headphone jack...

Sorry, but I want to throw this thing through a wall sometimes. My wife can attest to all the times I was yelling at the thing and having to go out and buy something else to get my MHDT+B-283 working as a proper headphone amp.

I am not angry at Ian, he didn't design the thing, but it should be the very first thing said to anyone buying one, in giant letters that flash and blink and fill the entire screen, if you are buying this for a tubed headphone amp, that is NOT what this is. If yu wish to "try" it you can plug your cans into the line outs and risk all kinds of impedance mismatches, or other odd stuff, but that nice big volume control that screams this is a headphone amp that accepts s/pdif for it's NOS DAC as well as two analog inputs, and using it as a pre is just a user adjustable feature you have to open the device up to allow, it seems, from a design perspective, that as useful a feature this is, it wasn't it's main design purpose.

I am going to try the line outs, might as well, have tried *everything* else under the sun, and even Ian asked me to ship it to him so they could look at it, and it turns out the issue is the headphone out is only SS, never even touching the tube, which is why I couldn't figure out why it sounded so... well, like a louder version of a typical SS reciever headphone out, even worse in some cases, depending on headphone impedance.

I was initially happpy about this on head-fi, but I stopped trying to recommend it because it seemed, from what I read of others, that mine was not out of the ordinary. I only brought it to the office because my little E-MU sometimes has trouble with a couple of my more power hungry phones, but I used the 0202 as the DAC thinking that I was getting TUBED HEADPHONE OUTPUT!! from the DAC09. IT didn't sound *bad*, just never sounded right. I was able to drive more powerful cans, but again, I suppose all I did was plug a SS DAC into a SS headphone amp.

I am ranting, I know, and I will calm down and not toss it out the window, I just wish I knew before now that it wasn't what I thought I was buying, and all the hours spent trying to figure out what the problem was were wasted, since the thing was designed to do exactly what I was trying to get it to stop doing.

One thing I love about GF, is how they share information, and how removing the cover to have a look. tube roll, or to swap a wire to enable a new feature doesn't void a warranty. Ian is always there to answer questions and help a brotha' out. I obviously decided to keep the device, and with the new information, I can be sure to pack the AT M50s or Sony XB700s or something , maybe the DT770/80s, and jack right ito the line out for the tube circuit. (preview: it sounds great. only with right kind of phones)

Hi Yashu,

We never said it was a tube headphone amp until now. I'm not sure where your confusion comes from because if it was I sure would have marketed it a such from the beginning and probably called it something else.

I remember us having conversations about many things, but never about it being a tube headphone amp. Sorry if their was any confusion when we launched it.

Turns out it is a decent tube headphone amp after all and prior to this everyone was enjoying the chip based headphone amp that feed the front jack. From the other side, there is people that thought the volume control was for the output RCA jacks !!

I'll take this is just a rant to blow off steam, but I know it sounds way better than the E-mu gear I used to use and recommend.

Cheers,
Ian

I was ranting, yes... I have spent a lot of time, you see, trying to get this thing to sound right, and failing that, most of the time it spent dormant, and I said why not take it to work?

I would not discount the e-mu 0202. The 0202 may be one of the best deals in consumer audio. As a pro tool, it can overdub, but that is about it, as it doesn't have phantom power and such, though I think it can fool many mics that need it, still, you get one neutrik jack, one regular 1/4" out, making L and R for two channel *input*, but output you get two 1/4" and and one 1/8" stereo, which, they work either way, but I am not sure if the 1/4" is balanced or not, I have not placed TRS cable from it to anything that would take balanced. I just use 1/4" to RCA, if I use it as a dac, but it has all ALPS pots, entirely class A, and I hate to say this, but the headphone out is better than the DAC09.

I think I remember telling you I could hear that it was a non-oversampling DAC, and this was before you had info on your site stating anything about the circuit, other than the not revealing the chips and such. I was only unhappy with the headphone jack, and thought it should have been sold as a mini tubed preamp, that works as a tube buffer if needed, and can do so while keeping the volumeout of the main circuit (so it would just be piped to the headphone port, like many pro equipment does, you generally always have a hot monitoring port no matter what you have coming out the main outputs)

In that case, the device is great, as it is the perfect size for a small system. Just add a digital source and some active monitors and instant hifi!

I just dislike the harsh and way-too-sizzly headphone out. I have enough phones to run the gamut from budget high end, to "my wife has no idea why I spent all that money on headphones".

Anyway, sorry for the rant, just got frustrated when I saw that was the answer the whole time under my nose. E-Mu does make some good product for the consumer (maybe not the pro, as I have a cakewalk interface that can do everything the 0404 can, but with the size of the 0202 and still runs on USB. It is somehow able to supply phantom power, like the 0202, but why the 0202 got the reputation of not being able to do it, not sure.

Remember, the e-mu was 100 bucks, and the DAC09 is more. As a headphone amp, the 0202 wins, as a DAC, the 0202 sounds a tad loose inthe low end compared to the DAC09. The 09 actually does look, feel, and sound, like an audiophile product. Look at it this way, if the only thing that truly loses out is a heaphone plug, and it does 4-5 other things, several involving a very rollable tube, then it's a good thing.

I never said it sounded like crap, I said the heaphone port didn't sound right, it was harsh and hot. I praised the 09 for it's use in other applications.

(honesty, you do get a lot for a small price, it rare that you get something worth as much or more than you paid. The B-283 is one example I am sure you are aware of. I love that thing. and reaaaaaaly want the new one)

I've been using E-mu gear since the mid-80s and prior to the TubeDAC-09 was recommending E-mu cards and boxes as an affordable alternative to high priced 'audiophile' Dacs, that and the included freeware can also teach a lot about audio for audiophiles.

I only run Senns HD 540, to me the best Senn made and again have been using them since the late 80s, on my 3rd set, my ears are basically trained to these things from years of home and studio use, I've mixed entire albums with them as my reference. Sampled 600 CDs full of instruments from synths to orchestra with them and the TubeDAC-09 sounds better than any of my E-mu gear thru my HD540s, I still run the E-mu APS on my Reality Win98 box, my only musical instrument since 1998.

I'm not dissing E-mu, just saying I like the sound of the TubeDAC-09 better. E-mu for those unfamiliar was one of the first to chase the DAC and ADC design and were one of the ones that got it right early and then they took what they learnt and made it affordable for musicians.

btw, Yashu was one of our first customers with the original B-283, then one of the first with the TubeDAC-09 and has supported us on other forums, so he gets some slack for the rants from me I'm just surprised that you didn't contact me earlier regarding not liking the headphone sound.

Cheers,
Ian

Extract from above:

"If yu wish to "try" it you can plug your cans into the line outs and risk all kinds of impedance mismatches, or other odd stuff, but that nice big volume control that screams this is a headphone amp that accepts s/pdif for it's NOS DAC as well as two analog inputs, and using it as a pre is just a user adjustable feature you have to open the device up to allow, it seems, from a design perspective, that as useful a feature this is, it wasn't it's main design purpose.

I am going to try the line outs, might as well, have tried *everything* else under the sun, and even Ian asked me to ship it to him so they could look at it, and it turns out the issue is the headphone out is only SS, never even touching the tube, which is why I couldn't figure out why it sounded so... well, like a louder version of a typical SS reciever headphone out, even worse in some cases, depending on headphone impedance.

I was initially happpy about this on head-fi, but I stopped trying to recommend it because it seemed, from what I read of others, that mine was not out of the ordinary. I only brought it to the office because my little E-MU sometimes has trouble with a couple of my more power hungry phones, but I used the 0202 as the DAC thinking that I was getting TUBED HEADPHONE OUTPUT!! from the DAC09. IT didn't sound *bad*, just never sounded right. I was able to drive more powerful cans, but again, I suppose all I did was plug a SS DAC into a SS headphone amp."

I purchased a DAC-09 3 weeks ago. I primarily use it to port out digital music from my PC to a tube amp to my speakers. After reading this post I decided to hookup my headphones (Grado GS1000) and have do some listening. I've been doing so for about 20 minutes without any real issues. The sound is good without fallouts or any discernable clicking sounds on my DAC. It sounds to my ears like a decent quality SS headphone out. Not great, just good, which is about what I expected given the unit's price.

Perhaps your unit is defective in some way and needs to be sent back to GF to be checked out?

I am really liking the tubed line-out to my AT M50s. I cannot speak for other phones because I cannot test others at the moment.

I certainly "hear" the tube... and it is MUCH less sibblant than the headphone port.

My gripe was that I honestly thought this was a DAC & tubed headphone amp (hybrid, I figured the one, although a great tube for rolling, would be used as more of a buffer, less for gain.)

Anyway, it comes configured to use the giant volume knob, which is nice to see, I hate small analog volume controls, the input selector and the 1/4" phones jack. From the front, it would really make most people believe it is a headphone amp with a USB and s/pdif DAC built in. I never knew until yesterday that the headphone out was off the SS only. I know the main Ethos of GF is tubed gear when possible. The tube buffers heped get the name out there and people on forums talking.

If this TUBE dac only has a SS headphone port, it should be default configured as a preamp, and sold as a tubed digital source and preamp for two other devices. A small, half-sized hybrid pre with all the features of a full sized component with the addition of a NOS DAC and USB input. What I just described is a really good value. It is extremely easy to look over the shortfalls considering all that it can do, and the things it can also do very well.

The E-MU is a little bloated on the bottom end, so that is one solid strike against it, as well, it, being a "prosumer" device, can sometimes lack the musicality that we seek, however, it sounds really good for 99 dollars, contains the ability to handle 24/96 and above, though, I don't use anything more than 24/96. It is an ovesampling DAC of moderate quality, with fairly good parts, and it has a good ASIO driver for windowsXP and XP x64.

I use it as my soundcard, essentially, at work, but I wanted "more", so I pulled the DAC09 back out after initialy being let down by it, and it was a little better. There was some heft behind the signal, which then could drive all my headphones, but it still had the HF boost, which gave me fatigue very quickly if I did not control the volume of th4e input source, to allow the volume pot on the DAC09 to be used more than 90 degrees rotation MAX. I heard less siblance, and a more balanced sound, but having the extra volume pot inthe chain, the gain on the e-mu, could leave a slight veil.

USB straight into the DAC09 revealed it's clarity, for sure, and with FLAC and some LAME 320k CBR mp3s, it sounded clear, crisp, a bit metallic in how it teated the HF, so I am sure there was a freq response hump somewhere, but overall, it isn't bad. I wasn't trying to say it sucked, I was trying to say I had no idea it was coming off the SS section, and that this entire time I had been falsely judging the thing! I always prefered my MHDT DACs to most other NOS DACs, and while this one is more than fair, I could not figure out why the USB connection did not allow for native ASIO operation. I have the USB-AUDIO driver. which picks up most other things, unless, like the Cakewalk, they come with their own drivers. The E-Mu actually sounds better than the Cakewalk Pro, but doesn't contain the features I need, the 0404 does, but, in some cases the 0202 sounds better than the 0404.

Anyway, back to the DAC09, so I must use ASIO4ALL, that is not a deal breaker, and I have not tried kernel streaming, but it would be cool if that worked.

Using the tubed line out to my AT M50s sounds really good. I notice that it's really wanting lower impedance headphones, and so my DT770/80s will probably sound great, as will my Sennheiser HD555s modded to 595s, and given some extra mass loading on the back of the driver, around the hole for hair to move in and out. I think my DT880s will sound good when I get them fixed. Of course Koss Porta Pros probabl sound interesting, as will my Sony XB700s. Any more power needed and the rich sound is going to suffer. Right now, percussion is snappy, guitar is warm and textured, as well the atmosphere of the area recorded seems to create a wide space, with HF smoothe as butter. Listening to a John Scofield album and very happy

I truly wished the tubed circuit was wired into the headphone jack, and it looks like it was meant to be, but I am glad to know that it wasnt me losing my sanity , indeed, it was SS afterall.I said before that the DAC09 was a swiss army knife of the audio world, however, I definitely feel it should be sold in preamp mode. As a preamp with a NOS DAC built in... hell, just add some powered nearfield monitors and instant 2 channel hifi.

I don't get my wishlists for my own gear, what makes you think I can get yours which are similar to mine. Rachel wisely gets me to focus on getting the included features right, after which I can start thinking of the next version.

I still have to test everyone of these before they go out the door which is quite a few a day, about one out of 5 has some issue that I pick up during the half hours tests, about one in 20 develop another issue in the first month, after which they just keep trucking along. It's a new product from a newish factory, kind of against how we operate, but the sound and pricing is just too good not to go with it. I do enjoy testing gear, look dear (boss), I'm working

A few minor teaks have gone in to improve the sonics in each production run. I've mentioned before that the factory has two new versions with newer chips etc, but they don't have the sound I like, so we stick with this one for now as is.

Cheers,
Ian

Ian, i have been listening as I said, to the DAC09 using the tubed output as a headphone out... impedancematching is important and it seems to sound best with AT m50s and my sony XB700s. The XB700s sound so warm and lush, I want to wrap it ll up in a box and toss it in the freezer to keep forever. Truly, it is a match made in frankenhaven. The B-283 is humming along with GE tubes at home on my headphone setup/studio and I just love it as it is the perfect mate to an MHDT Dialogue II. I have an MHDT that is upgraded with a tubed output stage and a good WE tube that I may move to the dac09, but it doesn't sound as good as the dialogue II+B-283.

That should let people know the quality of the tube buffer, it is better than the designed for purpose output buffer on a competing tubed DAC from MHDT. I prefer the GF b-283 as the final source output, and the upgraded MHDT DAC is sitting out in another room collecting dust as I use the older dialogue II with the b-283 instead. I am sitting here thinking about how warm and magical it all sounds. I have that WE tube in the other DAC and may move it into the dac09 for some more headphone listening when I use the dac09. I just don't know how to bias a tube.

Some advice needed

1. Using the Dac-09 in "pre amp mode" ... and hooking up 250 ohm 96db headphones (Beyerdynamic DT990Pro) to the tube output RCA ... will the Dac be able to drive the phones to an acceptable ... read LOUD ... LOL ... volume? I read that Ian can drive his Senn 540 which are 300 ohms ... but others seem to be stating that the Dac-09 needs more efficient phones if I am reading the thread correctly. I am a music lover but not very well versed in the tech aspect of sound appreciation.

2. I presume we can use the volume control in the front to control the volume when listening through the tube output RCA in "pre amp mode" ... is this true ?

3. Almost all my headphones have very long cords ... and I usually listen sitting at my pc ... is it OK to roll the cords in a circle without creating some sort of interference ...so they wont flop all over the place ? What do u people do with the long cords?
Thanks in advance !

dancingpotat said:

1. Using the Dac-09 in "pre amp mode" ... and hooking up 250 ohm 96db headphones (Beyerdynamic DT990Pro) to the tube output RCA ... will the Dac be able to drive the phones to an acceptable ... read LOUD ... LOL ... volume? I read that Ian can drive his Senn 540 which are 300 ohms ... but others seem to be stating that the Dac-09 needs more efficient phones if I am reading the thread correctly. I am a music lover but not very well versed in the tech aspect of sound appreciation.

2. I presume we can use the volume control in the front to control the volume when listening through the tube output RCA in "pre amp mode" ... is this true ?

3. Almost all my headphones have very long cords ... and I usually listen sitting at my pc ... is it OK to roll the cords in a circle without creating some sort of interference ...so they wont flop all over the place ? What do u people do with the long cords?
Thanks in advance !

Click to expand...

Hi,

1. Your cans will be fine, it is only 'quite' hard to drive headphones that have an issue and then you can just use the front headphone jack.

2. Yes. Note that the TubeDAC-09 now ships in Pre-Amp mode.

3. Good question, with any cable, I never wrap them up in a small circle, I prefer a loose lasso arrangement with a plastic tie.

Cheers,
Ian

Thank you very much for your prompt reply! You seem to be an enthusiastic music lover yourself ... and your customer service reflects your true interest ... I appreciate it !