SHURE M97xE & JICO SAS
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Cantabury Guy
Super Member
Jico SAS are very fine products. Fitted one to a V15-IV last year and was able to A/B with a decent Shure original and was "at least" equal. You should be pleased with your purchase. Actually, Im going to purchase another so as to be sure that I have a quality replacement.
jazzwolf
Super Member
assuming that the Jico N97HE is the same identical fit as the original N97HE it will not be a good fit. I have both cartridges with original stylus and the N97HE is a different fit. The cantilever fits but it is NOT a good fit there is too much space and opening between stylus and body.
Cantabury Guy
Super Member
Interesting. LP Gear site shows it as a fit. If you bought it from them and the fit is not good , they do have a good rep .
jazzwolf
Super Member
That's a good question as I don't think the sound can be improved on. I asked a similar question about putting an SAS stylus on a Shure M97XE and wondering if it would improve the sound and member Hakaplan who I respect and REALLY knows his Shure stylus stated it would not improve the sound.
Dynacophil
I ain't Phil, I'm 'phile
i see a brush
hakaplan
Needs professional help
It will fit but you may have to trim some plastic--no big deal.
I have the N95 SAS which fits the M97xE, but doesn't have the brush. Sounds good--perhaps a bit more detail than the N97xE, but the sound just seems more "right" with the original N97xE on it, and with the N95 SAS on a true M95. Maybe it's all in my mind. You test and see what you think.
I have JICO's N97HE (not SAS). You didn't specifically ask this, but I'll tell you that my experience is that JICO's brushes aren't quite as effective at damping as Shure's. They don't specify how much TF to add with the brush down, but I only add .25g instead of Shure's recommended .5g.
I have the N95 SAS which fits the M97xE, but doesn't have the brush. Sounds good--perhaps a bit more detail than the N97xE, but the sound just seems more "right" with the original N97xE on it, and with the N95 SAS on a true M95. Maybe it's all in my mind. You test and see what you think.
I have JICO's N97HE (not SAS). You didn't specifically ask this, but I'll tell you that my experience is that JICO's brushes aren't quite as effective at damping as Shure's. They don't specify how much TF to add with the brush down, but I only add .25g instead of Shure's recommended .5g.
LP Gear is advertising it as a suitable replacement so I'm positive it will fit. They would not advertise it if it was not a proper fit. No trimming of plastic needed. Sounds like the only real improvment would be innergrove tracking and slight detail which is what I really want over the Elliptical version. I wouldn't expect a change in sound as that would mean the cartridge would have to be changed.
Thanks all for your input..
Joey1127
Thanks all for your input..
Joey1127
jazzwolf
Super Member
Let me know what you think when you get it because I have the original stylus and believe me when I tell you that the N97HE will NOT fit correctly without some trimming as I have tried it. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they gave the plastic a different shape. What's curious is that the Jico site does not state that there is an SAS for the N97HE so how did LP gear get it?
perryinva
IS it vintage????
Is the SAS tip considered a "line" stylus, so that it travels deeper in the groove (supposedly in the untouched, less noisy area)? Also, in general, for a given cart, if you just change the stylus to a line type, you HAVE to be generating less signal, as the cantilever is making smaller excusions by being deeper in the groove, correct? This would have the effect of a slightly worse s/n ratio, would it not?
Also, has anyone directly compared the JICO regular VN35E to the SAS version on a V15 TIII? I'd really like to hear any input on the two. I have a NOS Shure on my V15 now, but it does sound a bit flat to me, so I want to get a new replacement, just don't know whether to go $68 or $97, or HE. Thanks all.
Also, has anyone directly compared the JICO regular VN35E to the SAS version on a V15 TIII? I'd really like to hear any input on the two. I have a NOS Shure on my V15 now, but it does sound a bit flat to me, so I want to get a new replacement, just don't know whether to go $68 or $97, or HE. Thanks all.
Well, I'm a little beside myself that LP Gear is recomending this as a direct upgrade/replacement stylus. YES, it does fit firmly and securely to the M97x body BUT....you have to gently snap off the upper flange on the stylus that says SHURE or in the case of the JICO, STEREO. It's ever so easy and once you do, the stylus slides right in under the M97x mounting block overhang and fits firmly. It sounds quite good.
I did note that the brush only needed about .25 grams extra tracking force so 1.5 at the arm V's SHURE's 1.75 for the N97xE.
The cart sounds the same as it did with the Elliptical Stylus, there is just less inner grove distortion (almost none!) and a tad more detail which you would expect from such a fine stylus. Is it worth the $100+ dollars? Well, I guess if you really like the SHURE sound and want to get improved inner grove performance, it's worth it. However, unless you need the dynamic stabolizer, you may want to just get an AT440MLa or even better the AT150MLx. I am ussing a DUAL so the AT's are a tad to High Compliant for me.
Joey1127
jazzwolf
Super Member
Thanks for the info. I figured there would have to be some type of adjustment on the cartridge body to get it to fit. Howard (Hakaplan) did mention that the brush was not as damped as the original Shure. I remember reading somewhere on this forum that someone popped out the brush on the Jico stylus and added a drop of silicone and it helped with the damping.
hakaplan
Needs professional help
I tried that--also tried adding a tiny bit of weight to the brush. That actually caused tracking problems. Seems that the SAS stylus is more delicate than the original Shure so it's too sensitive to extra damping. So yes like Joey I run it just .25g higher and it works fine that way.
Is this the stylus?
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=SHSM0097HE
I have a old M97 (like 20+ years old) with the original N97HE stylus in it, but the diamond is busted off. Will this work without trimming it? $45 isn't too bad to get an HE stylus, and I'd like to get this old thing going again. I got it on a TT a while back and it's been sitting on the shelf waiting to get used.
OR, should I just spend $50 more and get a new AT-440MLa??
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=SHSM0097HE
I have a old M97 (like 20+ years old) with the original N97HE stylus in it, but the diamond is busted off. Will this work without trimming it? $45 isn't too bad to get an HE stylus, and I'd like to get this old thing going again. I got it on a TT a while back and it's been sitting on the shelf waiting to get used.
OR, should I just spend $50 more and get a new AT-440MLa??
Yes,
That is an EXACT fit stylus. It will plug right into your cartridge with no triming. It only needs to be trimmed if you use it on the NEWER M97x which has an aloy mounting block V's the plastic one used on the M97ED and M97HE of the 80's.
As far as the AT, unless you have a LOW-MASS arm, you may want to stick with the SHURE. The AT is very HIGH COMPLIANT and will not do well in a higher mass arm.
Joey1127
Hi All,
I wanted to follow up with all of you on the JICO SAS being used on the M97x cartridge...
So, what I have found after hours of listening is that unless your Records are really CLEAN/MINT, the JICO SAS will really show you the bad side of vinyl. I found that the JICO SAS sounds best on NEW quality made records (Speakers Corner, Mo-Fi, Classic Records, 4 Men with Beards). When I run some of my older stuff that is really OLD and well played, like the Stones or some Beatles, Holly COW do they sound like $hit! However, change back to the original SHURE N97xE styli and they sound just fine!
I beleive the overly complex design of the SAS has a lot to do with the sensative attitude to less than perfect vinyl. Also, the cheesy PVC Plastic stuff from the 80's is really bad sounding on the SAS. I found that you almost need 2 tables. One for the cream-of-the-crop stuff and another for the less-than-perfect stuff. However, the core of my Vinyl is indeed MINT so for the very few recordings that are not, it's really not the end of the world.
Ed Saunders had told me something along these lines a while back when I asked him about the JICO SAS over his Elliptical stylus for the V15-III. He had said that "The JICO SAS is a great stylus, but I found that it sounded amazing on really good records and sounded really bad on bad records. The Elliptical was less critical and allowed a wider variaty of records to be played and enjoyed."
Joey
I wanted to follow up with all of you on the JICO SAS being used on the M97x cartridge...
So, what I have found after hours of listening is that unless your Records are really CLEAN/MINT, the JICO SAS will really show you the bad side of vinyl. I found that the JICO SAS sounds best on NEW quality made records (Speakers Corner, Mo-Fi, Classic Records, 4 Men with Beards). When I run some of my older stuff that is really OLD and well played, like the Stones or some Beatles, Holly COW do they sound like $hit! However, change back to the original SHURE N97xE styli and they sound just fine!
I beleive the overly complex design of the SAS has a lot to do with the sensative attitude to less than perfect vinyl. Also, the cheesy PVC Plastic stuff from the 80's is really bad sounding on the SAS. I found that you almost need 2 tables. One for the cream-of-the-crop stuff and another for the less-than-perfect stuff. However, the core of my Vinyl is indeed MINT so for the very few recordings that are not, it's really not the end of the world.
Ed Saunders had told me something along these lines a while back when I asked him about the JICO SAS over his Elliptical stylus for the V15-III. He had said that "The JICO SAS is a great stylus, but I found that it sounded amazing on really good records and sounded really bad on bad records. The Elliptical was less critical and allowed a wider variaty of records to be played and enjoyed."
Joey
Just the info I was looking for. I was intrigued by the SAS write up on their web site.
As far as compliance - I run the AT 440 MLa on a stock Sanyo TP-1020 arm and it sounds very good . It is especially kind to old thrift store vinyl because it plays below most of the old noise and wear. I run it at 1.25 grams for vertical and anti-skate and it tracks like a laser beam. It does not like warped records, but neither do I. They get recycled pretty quick. I'm thinking about moving up to a 150MLX and moving the 440 to another table.
Do you all run aluminum or steel headshells?
As far as compliance - I run the AT 440 MLa on a stock Sanyo TP-1020 arm and it sounds very good . It is especially kind to old thrift store vinyl because it plays below most of the old noise and wear. I run it at 1.25 grams for vertical and anti-skate and it tracks like a laser beam. It does not like warped records, but neither do I. They get recycled pretty quick. I'm thinking about moving up to a 150MLX and moving the 440 to another table.
Do you all run aluminum or steel headshells?
If the AT440Mla does not like your warped records, it is because you may be running it on a tonearm that is a tad to High Mass for that cart. The AT is VERY, VERY high compliant and want's a LOW MASS arm. Also, the AT440MLa should be tracking at 1.4/1.5 grams. 1.25 is a tad to light for the MLa. I LOVE the AT440MLa but it is just to high compliant for my DUAL 601 tonearm. While the DUAL was sold with a SHURE V15-III, the only SHURE's that really seem to do good on the medium to high mass arms are the one's with the stabolizer brush (V15 type IV and newer as well as the M97 series).
I would avoid that AT150MLx unless you have a really light weight tonearm to mount it on. I have always wanted to try the AT150MLx but because of the tonearms I have had over the years, I never had one low-mass enough for the AT. I see miss-matched tonearm cartridge combos all the time. Never understood why so many companies did that, offering HIGH COMPLIANT carts on MEDIUM to HIGH-MASS arms???
Anyway, I would say keep clear of the JICO SAS. LP Gear has their own version of the AT95 cart called the AT95SA you might be interested in. It is the AT95 cart with a SHIBATA stylus and it works GREAT on Medium-High Mass arms. Sounds INCREDABLE...and at $79 bucks, you can't go wrong with it. I LOVE mine.
joey1127