Questions about playing 78's on really old equipment.

[Brett a]

I've read the other threads about 78's. Lots of useful info, but I still have a few unanswered questions:

I'm horny to play some 78's. I picked up about 150 of them for $15 at the flea market last weekend. I really would like to have a record player in the kitchen, away from my main system. Which is to say I have no questions about EQ or which cartridge to mount on my TT, because I'd like an older stand-alone machine.

I have three possibilities in mind and would like opinions on them as technologies.

1. A hand-crank suitcase type. (least likely option) I like the idea of no electricity. But I'm not sure I'd be happy with no volume control, or the sound of the thing with every type of music. (Beethoven Symphonies for instance). Also, the needle on those things I think would wear a record out in just a few dozen plays. I've also been told (by one of you) that those needles wear out quickly and can get expensive.

2. I've recently acquired a 1946 Zenith tabletop radio/record player. I have a new crystal pick-up on the way. But it takes a similar metal needle as the hand-crank rigs. (See photo) Will this destroy records?

3. A console record player from the 60's. (most likely option) This would likely have one of those two-sided flip-over needles. This is probably the best option for preserving the discs, no?

Should I avoid playing 78's too much on the '46 Zenith? Or any of this equipment? As I said, I'm really not interested in going with modern separates. (TT, cart, phono stage, amp, etc.). I want on old rig to keep in the kitchen and make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside as I listen to this old technology.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[gerryu21220]

Originally Posted by Brett a

I have three possibilities in mind and would like opinions on them as technologies.

1. A hand-crank suitcase type. (least likely option) I like the idea of no electricity. But I'm not sure I'd be happy with no volume control, or the sound of the thing with every type of music. (Beethoven Symphonies for instance). Also, the needle on those things I think would wear a record out in just a few dozen plays. I've also been told (by one of you) that those needles wear out quickly and can get expensive.

2. I've recently acquired a 1946 Zenith tabletop radio/record player. I have a new crystal pick-up on the way. But it takes a similar metal needle as the hand-crank rigs. (See photo) Will this destroy records?

3. A console record player from the 60's. (most likely option) This would likely have one of those two-sided flip-over needles. This is probably the best option for preserving the discs, no?

Should I avoid playing 78's too much on the '46 Zenith? Or any of this equipment? As I said, I'm really not interested in going with modern separates. (TT, cart, phono stage, amp, etc.). I want on old rig to keep in the kitchen and make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside as I listen to this old technology.

Thanks for your thoughts.

You didn't say what type of 78s you acquired. Acoustic (up to mid-1920s), or electric-era (after 1925)? The easiest way to tell if a record is acoustic is if it has no lead-in or lead-out grooves. Electric-era records do have lead-in and lead-out grooves to activate the automatic changers. I will presume you mean electric-era 78s from the 40s, the most commonly found variety.

Option 1: Never play electric-era 78s on a wind-up acoustic machine. They are designed to play on an electrically amplified player with a lighter weight cartridge. The older acoustic reproducers are just too heavy, and can't reproduce the wider frequency range, and will tear up the groove. It may even cause the turntable to stop. Only play acoustic records on those.

Option 2: A good choice, but don't use steel needles. Use a jewel-tipped shaft (usually sapphire). You won't have to keep changing the needle after every record, and it won't dig up the grooves. The jewel-tipped needle comes in a straight and bent shaft variety. However, they are very difficult to find with the 3 mil tip. A 2 mil "All speed" version is easier to find, and will work - just a bit more hiss will be noticeable.

Option 3: A console is a great choice, but they take up so much room, especially in a kitchen! I would suggest a suitcase portable instead. Some have a flip-over crystal cartridge, and others have a ceramic cartridge with the flip-over needle. The latter would be my choice. Crystal cartridges can go bad, especially in hot or humid conditions, like a kitchen. It also gives you the option to play your mono Lps and 45s. (Get a stereo portable, or add a mono-wired stereo ceramic cartridge to a mono player for stereo records. Never play stereo records with an old mono cartridge.)

Hope that helps!

Gerry

P.S. Where did you find a working crystal cartridge for your Zenith? I need a few of those myself!

[beatcomber]

I have a 1965 General Electric solid state suitcase portable in my kitchen. Its cream and orange plastic casing even matches the paint in the room! It sounds pretty good for what it is too. Best $4.00 I ever spent.

[ke4jhj]

You have a nice looking Zenith there!

The ultimate playback system, of course, would be a KAB modified Technics SL1200 or even an Audio-Technica PL-120, but that's defeats what you wish to do.

If you plan to use the Zenith, I would avoid trying to play them using the stacking capabilities of the changer, but rather play them one at a time. I believe with the age of these records now, the possibility of breakage or cracking is just too great. Not to mention the scuffing that will likely occur.

You can obtain 500 new steel needles from www.78rpm.com for $17.50 plus shipping. If steel needles are used, I do strongly recommend that they be changed after each play, since they do wear quickly. A worn steel needle will cause very rapid wear.

I would guess that your Zenith changer probably tracks in the neighborhood of 30 to 50 grams, which is not excessive for tonearms of that era. According to the Turntable Factory website, the original Garrard RC1 changer, circa 1932, tracked at 230 grams!

Also, concerning run-in and run-out grooves on 78 rpm discs, Columbia electric 78's didn't use a run-out groove until about 1927 and run-in grooves did not become common until 1936.

Anyway, give it a try and I hope you get a lot of enjoyment from your Zenith and your 78's.

[gerryu21220]

Originally Posted by ke4jhj

Also, concerning run-in and run-out grooves on 78 rpm discs, Columbia electric 78's didn't use a run-out groove until about 1927 and run-in grooves did not become common until 1936.

I was speaking in just general terms as the easiest way to tell one kind from another. Actually, the early electric recordings were intended to be played on acoustic machines because that is what most people had at the time.

Also, a later (early 1950s onward) standard changer with the balance arm will not harm 78s. The records hit a cushion of air when they drop down. Sometimes even the air cushion will stay between the records, and may cause the top record to slip until solid contact is made with the record below. I've never damaged a record yet on one in the last 40 years. They are more problematic with 45s that refuse to drop.

On the other hand, the knife-style changers of the earlier models will chip, crack or even break records. I used to have one of those, so quite a few of my 78s now have a chip on the edge. :-( Avoid those like the plague!

I can't say anything about the changer of the Zenith in the photo; I've never had that style of changer, so I don't know how well they work. Best I can say is don't play any records that are valuable to you on it. Find duplicate thrift store copies for general play. That's what I do. I won't play anything I want to preserve on vintage equipment, so I buy the 3/$1.00 ones at the local thrift store for general every day play on vintage equipment. If they wear out or break, no great loss, and I still have my pristine copy filed away.

[radiotvnut]

Some type of portable from the '50's or '60's would probably suit your needs. Your best bet would be a Newcomb, Audiotronics, or Califone (preferably a tube model) classroom record player. These are manual record players and are usually of better quality than most consumer portables. They use the Astatic 81T or 89T powerpoint plug-in needle / cartridge combination and they have dual tips for LP/78. You do want to use caution as most, if not all, current replacement cartridges for these players have dual LP tips. There are some new production cartridges with a single 78 tip; but, I don't know of anyone who sells current production LP/78 versions of the 89T.

The better classroom players have seperate bass and treble controls, a pause control, a pitch control, and an output-to-tape jack. Of course, you can still use the headphone jack for taping purposes.

I wouldn't play any pristine vinyl LP's on these, as they track in the 6-10 gram range. That tracking weight should not phase a 78, though.

These players are common at flea markets, school board surplus auctions, and epay. If you are good at repairing things, you can probably get a non-working model on epay for a somewhat reasonable price. That's how I got my Newcomb. I'd rather pay $5+shipping for one in need of repair than $80 or $100 for one that the seller claims is in working order. And, we all know that what a seller claims and what is actual reality are often very different. Most all of the non-working ones will need an idler wheel, new motor mounts, a complete mechanical cleaning and lubrication, and a new cartridge. The amp may also need capacitors and other general service work, depending on how old it is. You can get the idler wheels from KMR electronics and the motor mounts from Antique Electronic Supply at very reasonable prices. The parts involved for repairing these are generally not that expensive. It's just labor intensive.

[Brett a]

Thanks so far. This is a lot of useful information. I'm sure most, if not all, of the 78's I bought are from the later electronic era. I have not gone through them thoroughly yet. I will pass on the hand-crank option. I don't think I'll be getting that specific with my collecting (who knows what the future will bring). But it raises the question:

Can you play both era 78's on a newer machine such as a console or classroom portable?

My kitchen is big enough for a console. (I have a 1200 sq.ft. house with a 450 sq ft kitchen) I'm going to look at a modestly sized one this weekend. An old Admiral. The seller can't tell me if it's stereo or mono (she just can't) But looking at it, I'm guessing it's mono.

[gerryu21220]

Originally Posted by Brett a

Can you play both era 78's on a newer machine such as a console or classroom portable?

Yes, you can play both types on a newer machine. The only ones that won't play are Edison Diamond Disc or Pathé. (Edison discs are recognizable because they are 1/4" thick.) Those use the "hill and dale" (vertical) method of recording just like cylinders, rather than standard grooves that are horizontally recorded.

Originally Posted by Brett a

My kitchen is big enough for a console. (I have a 1200 sq.ft. house with a 450 sq ft kitchen) I'm going to look at a modestly sized one this weekend. An old Admiral. The seller can't tell me if it's stereo or mono (she just can't) But looking at it, I'm guessing it's mono.

I believe it is one half of a stereo "companion" model or possibly a "spilt-system", meaning that there should be another cabinet just like it with the other set of speakers (companion) and possibly another amplifier (split system). If it is a split system, then the other unit was optional to make it operate in stereo and this one will operate in mono. Look for an M/S switch on it. If it is a companion model, you'll need the other set of speakers or add your own, as 1/2 the amp will not be driving any speakers.

It *may* also be a self-contained stereo model with both channels in the same unit, but it's kind of small for that. Looks just like a Wards Airline stereo phonograph I once had which was missing it's matching companion speaker.

Reason I believe it is stereo is that I see four control knobs. Most mono Hi-Fi units will typically have only three controls: Loudness, Bass and Treble. A stereo model will usually have four: Loudness, Bass, Treble and Balance. Not written in stone, but that is generally the case. One with a tuner will have yet another control for the function switch.

Most of the two-piece stereo models were made from 1958 to about 1960, when all-in-one consoles really gained popularity.

Regardless, the Admiral is a very nice one! Your 78s will play very nicely on it. It will probably need new capacitors though...

[gerryu21220]

Originally Posted by radiotvnut

Your best bet would be a Newcomb, Audiotronics, or Califone (preferably a tube model) classroom record player. These are manual record players and are usually of better quality than most consumer portables.

Very true, but a pain-in-the-butt having to change the record every three minutes, especially when you are listening to 78s while trying to get something else done, like cooking. One with an automatic changer would be better in this situation, then you only have to tend to the records every 15 to 20 minutes or so.

[Brett a]

Originally Posted by gerryu21220

Reason I believe it is stereo is that I see four control knobs.

Wow! You're amazing. Thanks for the info.

In an email, the seller wrote the following about the controls:
"Top one reads Treble, next says Bass, Next says Orth. Lp., Lon, sf1 and reads Compensator under that Knob, last knob is the volume. "

The "compensator" knob being a mystery to me.

[gerryu21220]

Originally Posted by Brett a

Wow! You're amazing. Thanks for the info.

In an email, the seller wrote the following about the controls:
"Top one reads Treble, next says Bass, Next says Orth. Lp., Lon, sf1 and reads Compensator under that Knob, last knob is the volume. "

The "compensator" knob being a mystery to me.

Up till each manufacturer started conforming to RIAA standards adopted by most in 1954, each company used their own tone compensation that varied greatly from one record to the next. Lps have significantly reduced bass in order to have more time on each side. Bass takes up a lot of groove space, so it is reduced on the record and then added back by the player. The problem is, since they were all different, the listener had to readjust the tone for each Lp, to get consistent tone quality. It's *somewhat* similar to the way Dolby noise reduction works. The compensator is supposed to eliminate fiddling with the tone controls for each brand of record. More of a gimmick than useful. It merely adds or subtracts bass, and some settings may reduce hiss.

Even RIAA records can vary greatly from one to another, as manufacturers seem to have their own loose interpretations of the RIAA curve, and often left up to the whim of the sound engineer for each recording.

Interesting that it doesn't list RIAA as one of the choices. That might indicate it was made before RIAA compensation became standard - 1953 or earlier. But the cabinet and style look more like 1956-1960. Can't wait to get all the details on it when you get it!

[Arkay]

Just a thought: you could look for a Dual, Lenco or even Telefunken TT from the sixties, with a 78 speed option. Some of these heavy-platter, idler-wheel TTs can be upgraded with massive plinths to produce excellent sound.

Then you could get a suitable cartridge with appropriate 78 stylus: some are actually still made/available new(!) that can track at a lighter weight than the older ones, appropriate to the tonearms on those TTs. That should result in less wear-per-play.

Then all you'll need is an appropriate equalization set-up, to hear those old 78s with greater fidelity than you probably ever imagined possible!

[Brett a]

Originally Posted by gerryu21220

Up till each manufacturer started conforming to RIAA standards adopted by most in 1954, each company used their own tone compensation that varied greatly from one record to the next. Lps have significantly reduced bass in order to have more time on each side. Bass takes up a lot of groove space, so it is reduced on the record and then added back by the player. The problem is, since they were all different, the listener had to readjust the tone for each Lp, to get consistent tone quality. It's *somewhat* similar to the way Dolby noise reduction works. The compensator is supposed to eliminate fiddling with the tone controls for each brand of record. More of a gimmick than useful. It merely adds or subtracts bass, and some settings may reduce hiss.

Even RIAA records can vary greatly from one to another, as manufacturers seem to have their own loose interpretations of the RIAA curve, and often left up to the whim of the sound engineer for each recording.

Interesting that it doesn't list RIAA as one of the choices. That might indicate it was made before RIAA compensation became standard - 1953 or earlier. But the cabinet and style look more like 1956-1960. Can't wait to get all the details on it when you get it!

I'm familiar with the RIAA curve, but still wasn't sure of this compensator knob. So thanks again.
The seller only has one 78. So I'll bring a few (sacrificial) LPs and 78's of my own to try on it.

[Brett a]

Originally Posted by Arkay

Just a thought: you could look for a Dual, Lenco or even Telefunken TT from the sixties, with a 78 speed option. Some of these heavy-platter, idler-wheel TTs can be upgraded with massive plinths to produce excellent sound.

Then you could get a suitable cartridge with appropriate 78 stylus: some are actually still made/available new(!) that can track at a lighter weight than the older ones, appropriate to the tonearms on those TTs. That should result in less wear-per-play.

Then all you'll need is an appropriate equalization set-up, to hear those old 78s with greater fidelity than you probably ever imagined possible!

Thanks, but I decided I don't want to go that route at this point in time. (Check my OP.)

[radiotvnut]

If you decide to go the automatic portable route, the best models were made by Magnavox and Zenith. Look for models with the Magnavox Micromatic TT or the Zenith Micro-Touch TT. RCA, GE, Voice of Music, Webcor, Sylvania, etc. also made some decent self contained automatic portables. These better models sounded decent and most had a fairly lightweight pick-up (for the day); so, you should be safe playing all records. Of course, there were plenty of cheap low quality portables made during that time that didn't sound the best and were hard on records.