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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Rightbrained said:
Jack ,
Do you have us any listening impressions with the DC300 yet?
Click to expand...

No, none at all. I helped my friend the brewmeister can 95 cases of beer yesterday, and then came home to install the screw in inserts. What a fiasco. I butchered up one panel so bad, that I plan to go buy MDF this afternoon, and rebuild both front baffles.

Probably will build the baffles to be flush with the front edges of the cabinet, and will look at rounding off the edges of the woofer hole as Zilch suggested. Black paint will probably be the color of choice for the baffle.

I tried using Super Soft 2 to flatten a few sheets of my Carpathian elm burl veneer. That also turned into a fiasco. They look worse now than when I started. I do have enough mahogany to veneer the cabinets, so black faces and mahogany sounds like what they will be when finished.

I don't need any more bad news.
 
badmusician said:
Longer term, I have a pair of P. Audio 12" woofers on back order. Claimed 97 dB sensitive, should be an interesting combination. Won't have those until October, though, and travel plans will probably mean cabinets will be pushed into November.

Bill
Click to expand...


Are these the P Audio WN-12S drivers that you were considering? Let us know how these work out. I like the specs and if response up to 1.6khz is clean, then I will use them in my next Econowave build. It seems to have good factors to make them an ideal EW candidate:
- high efficiency
- smooth response past 2khz with minimal breakup
- can extend to 50Hz in a 2.5 cu ft vented
- low inductance (0.68mH)
- fine Xmax for a pro audio woofer (3.6mm)
- good power handling (250w)
- should have a fair dispersion pattern up to the xover freq
- OK price ($104 each)

Funky looking surround and limited availability, so there are very few reviews. Anyone with experience on these woofers?
 
Plywood has its drawbacks and I have found that some of the screw inserts tend to splinter and blow-out the holes.
Mahogany with black baffles should look good .
I am still going over woofer choices. I want to stay with the economy theme here while trying to find a woofer with good sensitivity and having good bottom end extension as well. I want to be able to have solid bass without my subs while listening to 2 channel.
 
Zilch said:
HA! I'm confident the solution may be found somewhere among 95 cases of signature brew.... :thmbsp:
Click to expand...

Aaahhh, I know what you are thinking. But we only had one can each while eating our pizza for lunch. It was great fun for me to help do that. Their canning line is pretty much all manual, except for the can sealer.

Rightbrained said:
Plywood has its drawbacks and I have found that some of the screw inserts tend to splinter and blow-out the holes.
Mahogany with black baffles should look good .
I am still going over woofer choices. I want to stay with the economy theme here while trying to find a woofer with good sensitivity and having good bottom end extension as well. I want to be able to have solid bass without my subs while listening to 2 channel.
Click to expand...

The clearance holes for the inserts were drilled with the correct drill size, and were drilled in a drill press to keep them straight. One insert must have hit a void in the plywood, as it turned and angled roughly 20 degrees. One of the sides of the slotted guides for driving it then broke off, leaving the rest protruding above the plywood. Three other inserts also broke just before they reached the correct depth, leaving rough edges above the plywood. I leaned to love T-nuts and hurricane nuts at that point.

The DC 300 plots out pretty nice, and I expect it will provide the bass necessary to sound good 2 channel. My wonderments about it are whether it will make clear sounding mid-bass. I need to mount tuning ports on the baffle, and then can try the one which has the woofer held on with wood screws. That should allow bi-amping it with the CX 3400, and then we can check the time delay factors. That will go a long way in determining how to build the new baffles.
 
rlee777 said:
Are these the P Audio WN-12S drivers that you were considering? Let us know how these work out. I like the specs and if response up to 1.6khz is clean, then I will use them in my next Econowave build. It seems to have good factors to make them an ideal EW candidate:
- high efficiency
- smooth response past 2khz with minimal breakup
- can extend to 50Hz in a 2.5 cu ft vented
- low inductance (0.68mH)
- fine Xmax for a pro audio woofer (3.6mm)
- good power handling (250w)
- should have a fair dispersion pattern up to the xover freq
- OK price ($104 each)

Funky looking surround and limited availability, so there are very few reviews. Anyone with experience on these woofers?
Click to expand...

No, I went with the $69 E12-200S. The WN *might* be a little smoother up high, but never having heard either one it's hard to know. The models I ran make the WN look a little happier in something under 2 cf tuned in the 50's The E12 uses a bigger box, goes a little deeper. The size is fine by me, I'd rather build a floor stander than a smaller box that needs a stand. Dispersion should be a wash. So, I went 'econo'. Time will tell if I made a good call or not...

The salesman was big on the E12-250N, but of course that one was also back ordered. The main attraction seemed to be light weight, nice for a portable monitor, less of a factor for my uses.

Bill
 
Hey all,
Can these be built by someone who's only ever built the Indignia's? Or should I simply build another indignia set since I'm digging those so much? I can't possibly hijack this thread nor want to suggest I am, but those inexpensive two ways really are rocking with my sons sansui 7070. Can't tell you the pride of enjoyment factor. And now I read everyone saying these econowaves are even better? OMG what have I gotten myself into. My wife just shakes her head.

take care
peter
 
My local source for small bags of fiberglass insulation has dried up. So I resorted to ordering a roll of R25/15" wide, on line. That means a long wait.:(

I don't know if there are any other car-less city dwellers out there like me, but what a PITA. Just venting.
 
Go for it. If you did Indignia, you can do this.

peterz said:
Hey all,
Can these be built by someone who's only ever built the Indignia's? Or should I simply build another indignia set since I'm digging those so much? I can't possibly hijack this thread nor want to suggest I am, but those inexpensive two ways really are rocking with my sons sansui 7070. Can't tell you the pride of enjoyment factor. And now I read everyone saying these econowaves are even better? OMG what have I gotten myself into. My wife just shakes her head.

take care
peter
Click to expand...
 
peterz said:
Can these be built by someone who's only ever built the Indignia's?
Click to expand...
Level of difficulty, about the same. See my post in the Indignia thread:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3042669#post3042669

Everything you need to know to eWave is linked from Post #1 here. Click "First" at the top or bottom of any page in this thread to get there expeditiously.... :yes:

skywave-rider said:
My local source for small bags of fiberglass insulation has dried up. So I resorted to ordering a roll of R25/15" wide, on line.
Click to expand...

You'll have to go into production now to use that up.... :D
370083/7190=51.4719​
 
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Zilch,
thanks (again!) there are tons of vintage cabs that show up around the Denver/Boulder metro area - sansui sp2000 for $50 nearby. sansui au217 integrated for $20 nearby also. Plans all afternoon until around 8pm and then I'll see if they're still around...

I'll start reading up on the econowave tonight, thanks
peter
 
Time Delay Measurments

One cabinet baffle hadn't been ruined by me yet, and a Dayton DC 300 was attached to the inside with wood screws. The assembled and tuned (30 Hz) cabinet was then tested using the CX 3400. The CD compensation was engaged. No woofer Zobel has been installed yet.

Picture 1 shows the unit being tested.

Picture 2 is a panoramic FR of the unit hooked in the normal configuration, with the top FR being with no woofer time delay. The bottom FR is with the HF phase reversed. Note the large dip at the xover frequency. Adding any time delay at all caused the dip to decrease. Adding .15 m sec delay caused the FR to flatten again.

Picture 3 is a panoramic FR, with the top FR being normal configuration, with no woofer time delay. The bottom FR is with the time delay increased to about .15 msec, which causes the dip to peak.

Seems to me that the present mounting, with the woofer on the back surface of the baffle, and waveguide mounted on the front surface of the baffle is pretty near correct. When I build the new baffles then, the woofer will be recessed the depth of the waveguide edges into the new mounting surface behind the baffle, and the waveguide will be mounted flush with the front surface of the baffle. This will keep the spacing of .75 inches between the front of the woofer and the back of the waveguide.

I have not spent as much time as necessary to fully evaluate the woofers mid/bass response, but have not noticed any warts. I think it will be a nice combo with the DE 250, and QSC waveguide, in a $64 cabinet. More Keepers?
 

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I have one EWave x-o done.
1 m., running DE250/QSC on top of PE KDT with JBL 123A-1 woofer mounted behind baffle. Box has no fill yet.

1: No zobel, waveguide 1.5" forward
2: No Zobel, against baffle.
3: Zobel (8 Ohm/20uF, all that I have), 1.5 inches forward.

I ran out of time today so I don't know yet where the forward axis is. Remember this woofer is shallower -- I think -- than the DC300 Jack is working with.
 

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skywave-rider said:
I have one EWave x-o done.
1 m., running DE250/QSC on top of PE KDT with JBL 123A-1 woofer mounted behind baffle. Box has no fill yet.

1: No zobel, waveguide 1.5" forward
2: No Zobel, against baffle.
3: Zobel (8 Ohm/20uF, all that I have), 1.5 inches forward.

I ran out of time today so I don't know yet where the forward axis is. Remember this woofer is shallower -- I think -- than the DC300 Jack is working with.
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure that the 123A woofer is shallower than the the DC 300. And your SPL measurements give a drop of 5 dB at right around 2 KHz. You are probably very close, since the length of a quarter wave at 1600 Hz is roughly 1.5 inches, if I did the math correctly. I suppose that there is more at play than the depth of the woofer, though. Even so, it seems like we should find a good spot somewhere within 1.5 inches of each other, since reversing the phase of the HF can account for a half wavelength.
 
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You know the drill, now; find the forward axis, decide if that's where you want it, and parse the system response into HF, LF, and how they sum there.

From what I'm seeing so far, we're fighting the wide spacing between centers in comparison to standard eWave with this taller waveguide, and have to push the crossover frequency as low as is practical. I'm at 1.9 kHz, which is too high; it needs to get down to our 1.6 kHz target, at least.... :yes:
 
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Zilch said:
You know the drill, now; find the forward axis, decide if that's where you want, and parse the system response into HF, LF, and how they sum.

From what I'm seeing so far, we're fighting the wide spacing between centers in comparison to standard eWave with this taller waveguide, and need to push the crossover frequency as low as is practical. I'm at 1.9 kHz, which is too high; it needs to get down to 1.6 kHz, at least.... :yes:
Click to expand...

1.6 KHz is the target, for sure. I set my CX3400 to what I thought was 1.6 KHz by looking at the HF and LF drivers separately. Then when both are operated and summed, and I checked the time delay, the dip occurs in each case at about 2 KHz. Skywaveriders dip also occurs above 2 KHz, and if he is using a standard E-Wave crossover, it should happen at about 1.6 Khz. But my delay to achieve maximum dip, or achieve flatness seems to be roughly one quarter wave length of 1.6 KHz. With no accuracy spec's on the Behringer crossover and RTA, I am at a loss which one I should believe again.

But relativity is good, and I know it will eventually all work out. Just another worrisome spot.
 
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Remember that the CX3400 settings are electrical, whereas the acoustical includes the driver responses.... :yes:
 
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