how can i get proper imaging based on room and speaker size?

[shimniok]

FWIW my main system is in the office...My office may be a tad bigger than yours but it's not at all a big room. I have a desk about 5' from the back wall, my chair is between desk and back wall so I face the other side of the room (versus having my desk up against the wall and facing it as I set).

Speakers are on the opposite side of the room from me about 8' away and maybe 6' apart. The NHTs are supposed to be put up near hte wall so they are about 12-18" from the wall but have had different speakers out as much as 3' from the wall. My small speakers get stacked on the NHT's until I can get stands.

Other info... I have an egyptian loom rug in front of the speakers (between desk and speakers), all drywall, ceiling tall bookcases filled with books & media behind me, a 3' tall bookcase to the left, a hangin glass/wood media cabinet on the wall to the right, and all the gear sits up on a "shelf" behind the speakers -- in a little 'cove' under the staircase (split level house) The floor is laminate engineered flooring (like hardwood engineered flooring, but laminate), walls and ceiling are textured drywall. Ceiling is probably only 7'

With each of my speakers and with this setup, I have what I consider to be reasonable imaging and a reasonably wide (sometimes as wide as the room) soundstage with mediocre depth (somewhat possible to distinguish front from back; apparent depth may be a bit compressed)

HTH

Michael

[Brett a]

Originally Posted by dkelley

another thing, if you CAN'T move them from back and side walls (same with me), then do what I did: put lots of acoustic paneling behind and beside them. improved imaging immensely,

This is called "treating the first reflection points". The most accurate way of finding them is to sit in the listening char and have someone move a mirror around on the wall. When you can see the tweeter in the mirror, you've found the spot to stick an absorption panel. Putting absorption on the refection points of the ceiling is also helpful. But you really need to have your placement dialed in before taking such a fine-tune approach.

I have found absorption behind the speakers helped to clean up imaging also.

------

EDIT to add:
You know, never mind. The OP's set up is too near-field for my advice to be helpful.


.

[NAD C375BEE]

Bifocals baby, bifocals.

[TejasRichard]

lol NAD

[aidynphoenix]

Originally Posted by djnagle

My office looks like yours and I get great imaging. BUT, I don't have all the stuff on my desk that you do. I run Omaga Super 3R speakers pointed straight out on eighter side of my computer screen. When you angle speakers, as you have, and sitting so close, there is to much interference from eachother to give good imaging. They way you have your speakers now, they would most likely image well if you were sitting five feet further back. When you move your chair back does the image get better? For near field listening like that, you could use much smaller speakers.

i tryed backing up from them.. it didnt really sound good untill i was almost all theway at the other end of the room..
maybe its safe to say these speakers dont fit in this room

thanks guys!
i think i am going to have to move my big speakers out and put them on tv/movie duty. where imaging doesesnt matter as much to me.
and substitute some smaller ones for my computer/main music setup

if the speakers were much smaller would they maybe work in the locations the others are at?? or are they too far apart? do you think it would help if i could move them inward towards the center of the desk more?

if so.. i think its time i rearange the whole thing..

[Caseworker]

Originally Posted by TejasRichard

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...ing=Room+Setup

There is a calculator at the bottom. Worked like freakin magic for me.

I just got a severe Mr. Rogers flashback from watching the video at the bottom of the page.

It's a wonderful setup, isn't it my friends?

[aidynphoenix]

ok guys.. i tryed the smaller speakers.. and its hard to tell if sound is much better..
is there any known problems having 1 side of the speaker against something..
heres 2 photos.. there is decient space behind them.. not sure if thats going to help though..
you be the judge

[beatcomber]

Originally Posted by TejasRichard

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?ar...ing=Room+Setup

There is a calculator at the bottom. Worked like freakin magic for me.

Dang, I'm getting good at this!

I just plugged my room's dimensions into the calculator, and my speakers were already positioned within a few inches of the Cardas recommendation (which was set up by ear)!

I look forward to seeing how they sound in the "100% optimal" position.

[djnagle]

Originally Posted by aidynphoenix

ok guys.. i tryed the smaller speakers.. and its hard to tell if sound is much better..
is there any known problems having 1 side of the speaker against something..
heres 2 photos.. there is decient space behind them.. not sure if thats going to help though..
you be the judge

A couple of things. Make sure you have the + and - to the right terminals on both the amp and the speakers. Also try facing the speakers straight out instead of pointing at you. You'll just have to play with the speaker location to get it right. If everything is set up correctly, it should not be a problem.

[aidynphoenix]

thanks djnagle!
yea its hooked up right.. i have the habbit of putting colored tape on the ends of the wires to be sure.. red and black exectrical tape
i'l try angleing them out more and see if that helps..

any input on how location from or towards corners might change the characteristics of the sound?
like more bass or less depending on how far they are from walls?
i always heard you get more bass if they are in far corners.. is that right? and also is that something that just depends on your speakers themselves??
also.. these are 2 way sealed cab speakers.. a 10" and a 2"
thanks guys.. i think i am going to rearange the whole room.. and make some speaker stands.. from the origional layout: it should be like turning the room 90degrees to the left.. the main desk on the 13' wall with the window..

thanks for all the help guys!

[melofelo]

try much smaller monitor speakers that act like point sources like a pair of mission 760i which you can find fairly cheap..
..keep them out of the corners of the room with the tweeter at ear height...

if you can..have them firing across the width of the room instead of down the length...
pointing towards your seating listening spot...and about 1.5 meters apart or a bit closer if your room isn't very big...

you're probably used to 'big' bass but much of that bass is probably a symptom of using too large a speaker in too small a room...so the bass is amplified by the proximity of side walls and small room size creating standing waves...

using two pairs of speakers is also detrimental to imaging in a small room...the ears have trouble pinpointing where an instrument is if the signal's sound is emanating from four different boxes with drivers so far apart...in a much larger room those speakers will appear small enough to act as a point source ..in a smaller room...the illusion is lessened significantly

seems you have alot of furnishing which is a good thing..as it breaks up reflected waves ..but i think smaller speakers will give you more placement options as well as suit the acoustics of your room better...
you can always switch to the bigger one's when imaging is less important than volume and bass impact..

if you do go this route...remove the big speakers from the room...even if undriven...those bass units are large enough to act as passive radiators...and will vibrate in sympathy to the smaller pair..

[aidynphoenix]

great info!!
especially about the radiators i have behind me

heres my delemma.. i could have the speakers in the ideal locations.. but everything would have to be away from the walls some distance.. and the problem with that is howmuch room i have..
if i part with the tv/entertainment system. it could be done,,
i guess i'l have to just hope that oneday i will have a gigantic Mancave
once i rearange everyhing i'l throw up some pics.
thanks for all the input/advice guys

[melofelo]

instead of using an equilateral triangle..bring the speakers closer together and angle them inwards less...the distance of one speaker to another..should be less than the distance of each speaker to your ears according to your diagram..your are probably getting soundwaves from each other cancelling each other out before reaching your ears...oh...and start hunting for a pair of mission 760i...don't let their small size put you off..in a small room they will give a tuneful bass and if you wall mouth them on angled brackets that can be tightented up fairly rigidly once they are about a foot from the rear wall...you'll be impressed how clean such a cheap pair of two way speakers can sound while providing enough kick low down to enjoy acoustic bass intruments properly

[aidynphoenix]

what do those sell for used? you own a pair?
one site showed $250 and another said $65.

[melofelo]

i've heard a pair years ago...and they are lovely little speakers...but there are lots of small speakers like the 760i that can be had for less than $60... celestion dl4 ,b&w dm110,mission 760, tannoy,wharfedale 505,kef,mordaunt short ms20,monitor audio rs 252,heybrook hb1 etc...just a few good manufacturers that made good boxes in the late 80s than can be had for peanuts these days
usually they used 6inch mid bass unit and 1 inch dome tweeter in either a smallish ported or sealed box of cheap but solid construction with simple crossovers using good wiring and drive components.
you don't need to spend much for a nice pair of bookshelf sized monitors that will give you good imaging..