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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

Zilch said:
It's more difficult to find 15" drivers that play competently up to 1.5 kHz, the directivity is not as well matched, and the center-to-center distance is of necessity greater. None of that's a deal breaker, but 10s and 12s are a better match and easier to work with.... :yes:
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I have a set of silver dust cover 15" JBL's (I'll have to look more closely at the model numbers) from a Guitar amp I no longer use. Hence the reason I asked. I don't have a lot of power (12w/ch) to push these so I'm also looking to stay as efficient as I can.
 
Rhubarb said:
I *think* that the Advent Legacy is a 6 ohm speaker...not too sure though. I do know that it is only a 10" woofer.
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That's the same 10" I used, from the Advent Maestro 3-way. Maestro add a huge plastic ring to make it look bigger, but when I re-foamed I just put the standard gaskets on it.

They sound pretty good with the E-Wave!:thmbsp:

I have a good tweeter if you decide to keep the Advents as is. [Edit: Doh! I just looked at your pic, the Maestro Tweets don't have the rectangular flange with the logo, they are just square.]
 
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Zilch said:
Several builders have noted this, in the same context, well beyond the levels where they would normally listen. The Selenium drivers provide more extended VHF response than many others, and if we take advantage of that with HF compensation as in eWave, there are limits to how hard they can be pushed without protest.
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Interesting. I have played the "Little Reds" repeatedly with 300w/ch Carvin power, outdoors... and I can pretty much run the amp to just under clipping threshold, and there's no problem. These are using the newer D220Ti drivers. I've also run the "BiggiE-Waves" loud too (they have the earlier D210Ti drivers)... 100w/ch PS Audio Trio amp and/or 90w/ch Rogue Audio tube amp on the BiggiE's...

It's pretty darn loud. As in drowning out railroad traffic a half-block away, in the case of the Little Reds!

I wonder if the people having issues, need to make sure the diaphragms are properly centered in their Selenium drivers? Sometimes taking the back off, and just removing and reinstalling the element, can help, if there's a slight misalignment...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
jhoyt said:
Well, I finally had a chance to really turn up the B-Waves. (As in, the wife was out shopping, and the kids were out playing.) I also hooked up my Kenwood KA-8100 amp, a combination which I had been wanting to try. My first impression is that these speakers can move a lot of air. And, an estimated 20 to 30 watts of output is sufficient to vibrate furniture, even couch cushions! The bass is rich and full, especially the all-important low bass. These speakers have absolutely no trouble with anything I've tried to play. However, the low-mid peak is still there, but not as noticeable as before. I'm perfectly willing to believe, though, that the room could be interfering.

Another thing I noticed is that at high volumes there's considerable breakup in the HF driver. Or so it seems. I tried several different sources, and it seemed to be present with each. If I was really scientific, I'd hook up a different amp to test, but I have neither the time nor inclination to do so. The hash was only present at high volumes, well above what I would normally listen at. Is this a normal phenomenon in new Ti drivers, or something I should be concerned about?

I'm trying to find the "perfect" amp to pair with these speakers. It's the Kenwood's turn to see what they can do!
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No, you shouldnt be having breakup! Not sure how bad or how loud you are referring to, I have noticed a little "fizzyness" to the basic sound. It was explained to me that part of the 220Ti's nice extension is because of a fortuitous breakup node at hf in the diaphagm, which pushes response a little highr than might otherwise be the case. Wayne told me he notices a little of this in the Eminence 2002 hf unit they use in there basic system, for the same reason. I felt CC crossovers helped this out considerabley, others didnt see how and you might not either.

Russellc
 
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GordonW said:
Interesting. I have played the "Little Reds" repeatedly with 300w/ch Carvin power, outdoors... and I can pretty much run the amp to just under clipping threshold, and there's no problem. These are using the newer D220Ti drivers. I've also run the "BiggiE-Waves" loud too (they have the earlier D210Ti drivers)... 100w/ch PS Audio Trio amp and/or 90w/ch Rogue Audio tube amp on the BiggiE's...

It's pretty darn loud. As in drowning out railroad traffic a half-block away, in the case of the Little Reds!

I wonder if the people having issues, need to make sure the diaphragms are properly centered in their Selenium drivers? Sometimes taking the back off, and just removing and reinstalling the element, can help, if there's a slight misalignment...

Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I havent noticed any breakup at pretty decent volume, but I have noticed a little "fizzyness", not from over pushing, just the sonic flavor of the driver. Seemed to be much improved with Charge coupled crossover, YMMV.

Russellc
 
Bauhausler said:
The original speakers were sold with plugs for the ports so they could be used sealed or ported. If you keep the original woofers try it both ways before deciding what works best.
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If I use these cabinets, with the horn inside the cabinet and the woofers moved as close to the horn as possible, that removes the port from play.

Also, any thoughts on where I can find the info for the Marantz woofer?

Thanks!:thmbsp:
 
skywave-rider said:
I tried to find your original B-Wave post in this thread but failed. Do you have stuffing in the box? Maybe a cabinet resonance?

Too low in frequency for upper-end woofer response problem that a Zobel would fix....
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What I meant to say was "standing waves." Maybe more fiberglass?
 
I have a set of 4430s that I want to use as Left and Right in my theater. I am thinking about using the E-wave and a 2235H as a matching Center channel.

Check my math on this ...

I need the Selenium driver, the Waveguide (probably the Pyle from PE), the parts for the 'low efficiency' crossover (the 2235H is 93dB), and a cabinet built to the same internal dimensions as the existing 4430.

I want to put the waveguide as close to the woofer as possible.

Sound right?

Are there any other waveguides that might be a better match to the Bi-radial horn of the 4430?

About the room ... All three speakers are behind a perforated screen and can be raised off the floor by any amount. The front row of seating is about 13 feet from the screen. The back row is raised up and about 17 feet from the screen.

Thanks
 
1scienceguy said:
If I use these cabinets, with the horn inside the cabinet and the woofers moved as close to the horn as possible, that removes the port from play.

Also, any thoughts on where I can find the info for the Marantz woofer?

Thanks!:thmbsp:
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I doubt that kind of info is available for a production speaker woofer. Is there someone who can test one for you?

I have one here with a bad spider and one 'good' one with no surround. I'll see if I can get some kind of meaningful measurements on it in the next few days. Lack of surround should not affect measuring the upper end response I'd think.
 
jhoyt said:
Well, I finally had a chance to really turn up the B-Waves. (As in, the wife was out shopping, and the kids were out playing.) I also hooked up my Kenwood KA-8100 amp, a combination which I had been wanting to try. My first impression is that these speakers can move a lot of air. And, an estimated 20 to 30 watts of output is sufficient to vibrate furniture, even couch cushions! The bass is rich and full, especially the all-important low bass. These speakers have absolutely no trouble with anything I've tried to play. However, the low-mid peak is still there, but not as noticeable as before. I'm perfectly willing to believe, though, that the room could be interfering.

Another thing I noticed is that at high volumes there's considerable breakup in the HF driver. Or so it seems. I tried several different sources, and it seemed to be present with each. If I was really scientific, I'd hook up a different amp to test, but I have neither the time nor inclination to do so. The hash was only present at high volumes, well above what I would normally listen at. Is this a normal phenomenon in new Ti drivers, or something I should be concerned about?

I'm trying to find the "perfect" amp to pair with these speakers. It's the Kenwood's turn to see what they can do!
Click to expand...

I've played my ewaves up to irresponsible volumes without audible distortion, hitting 200W peaks. Is it happening on both speakers or just one? What about the amp?
 
rhubarb9999 said:
Are there any other waveguides that might be a better match to the Bi-radial horn of the 4430?
Click to expand...
Yes, the smaller butt-cheek, JBL 2342, and there appear to be new thread-on PT waveguides with the 4430's 90° x 90° dispersion. Also, you'll save center-to-center distance and cabinet volume (and maybe some $$$) using LE14 rather than 2235H. Several LHF members have built similars.
 
Finished the problem solving phase on the 1st Advent/2W and have it assembled and playing. Initial balance running pad at ca 11:00 and lobe center sounds nearly dead-on center of the drivers, no corrective adjustments indicated. They will be perfect against a wall on 40" stands.
On to the 2nd, which will be ident other than having the L-pad position mirrored for operational convenience. This speaker physically and acoustically takes the mod almost like it was a design consideration.
 

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Maybe EconoWave Xovers?

This is probably as good as I am going to do on running the standard EconoWave crossovers with the B&C DE250 and QSC waveguide/horn combo. Laying the speakers on their backs made it a lot easier to get good readings in the small spot left for testing.

The first set of FR's shows the crossover frequency on top, and the normal setting on the bottom. These FR's are for the B&C 12PS32 woofers, which required a 20 uF for C2 to effect the crossover at 1.6 KHz. Hi pass values are C1=4 uF, L1=.9 mH, all other values same as standard.

The second set of FR's shows the crossover frequency on top and the normal setting on the bottom. These FR's are for the Dayton DC300 woofer, which required a 15 uf for C2 to effect the crossover at 1.6 KHz. Hi pass values are the same as above.

Both the B&C woofers and the Dayton's required an increase in value of C2 for the crossover to take place at 1.6 KHz. Both measurements shown here use the same set of hi pass components, which are proposed to become the standard EconoWave values for the DE250/QSC waveguide combination.

A very slight rise in HF can be seen at the upper end, which could be decreased by lowering the value of C3 from .47 uF to .22 uF, if it is found intolerable. I wanted to keep the values standard except where changes were necessary to meet the 1.6 KHz crossover frequency.

EDIT: The schematic for the proposed E'Wave Crossover for DE250/QSC waveguide has been added.
 

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Bauhausler said:
I've played my ewaves up to irresponsible volumes without audible distortion, hitting 200W peaks. Is it happening on both speakers or just one? What about the amp?
Click to expand...

You know, once I was having "Resonance" problems, or what I thought were, during my "resistor heating up tests" and it turned out to be the edge of the horn vibrating against the edge of the cab. Relocation in a more secure fashion ended that.

Russellc
 
jackgiff said:
This is probably as good as I am going to do on running the standard EconoWave crossovers with the B&C DE250 and QSC waveguide/horn combo. Laying the speakers on their backs made it a lot easier to get good readings in the small spot left for testing.

The first set of FR's shows the crossover frequency on top, and the normal setting on the bottom. These FR's are for the B&C 12PS32 woofers, which required a 20 uF for C2 to effect the crossover at 1.6 KHz. Hi pass values are C1=4 uF, L1=.9 mH, all other values same as standard.

The second set of FR's shows the crossover frequency on top and the normal setting on the bottom. These FR's are for the Dayton DC300 woofer, which required a 15 uf for C2 to effect the crossover at 1.6 KHz. Hi pass values are the same as above.

Both the B&C woofers and the Dayton's required an increase in value of C2 for the crossover to take place at 1.6 KHz. Both measurements shown here use the same set of hi pass components, which are proposed to become the standard EconoWave values for the DE250/QSC waveguide combination.

A very slight rise in HF can be seen at the upper end, which could be decreased by lowering the value of C3 from .47 uF to .22 uF, if it is found intolerable. I wanted to keep the values standard except where changes were necessary to meet the 1.6 KHz crossover frequency.
Click to expand...

Whoops, I must have dropped the ball somewhere along the line. Are we no longer using the LR crossover?

Russellc
 
Pio1980 said:
This speaker physically and acoustically takes the mod almost like it was a design consideration.
Click to expand...
It's certainly looking good; wish I could hear them, actually. Gonna do similar with some Smaller Advents here soon. Post a pic when you get the pair complete so we can make you "Official." :thmbsp:

jackgiff said:
Both the B&C woofers and the Dayton's required an increase in value of C2 for the crossover to take place at 1.6 KHz. Both measurements shown here use the same set of hi pass components, which are proposed to become the standard EconoWave values for the DE250/QSC waveguide combination.
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Those are looking very good, Jack, and I sure do like the sound of the QSC/DE250 combo. A little more testing to do on the Advents, and then I'll move back to the traps.... :yes:
 
Russellc said:
Whoops, I must have dropped the ball somewhere along the line. Are we no longer using the LR crossover?

Russellc
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I finished my end of the LR4's and turned it over to Zilch to verify, and then went on to see what it takes to make the EconoWave crossover work with the DE250/QSC combo at 1.6 KHz. Now he has his hands full.

Edit: I do plan to go back and see if making the HF output inductor larger and the coupling cap smaller (as per Gordon's suggestions to "lower the Q") will simplify the circuit. My last post on the LR4 was in post #8063.
 
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Fizzyness, is that a word?

Russellc said:
Agreed. I havent noticed any breakup at pretty decent volume, but I have noticed a little "fizzyness", not from over pushing, just the sonic flavor of the driver. Seemed to be much improved with Charge coupled crossover, YMMV.

Russellc
Click to expand...

Good description in any case, I know exactly what it would sound like!

I didn't get much time to listen to the Seleniums yet, I switched back to my JBL 175 clone DuKane's 'cause I did not like the adapters I had to use on my modified Pyle waveguides (3-bolt now). (Any idea when JBL will be shipping WG's?)

I did run them up to the limit of the Advent 10" and maybe a bit beyond that with the 2235's. Can't say I heard anything amiss (from the other room!).

My wife of course preferred the rolloff of the JBLish driver. Aluminium diaphragms do sound sweet! This is the best they have sounded, and I've had them on quite a few different horns over the years...
 
To clarify my earlier post about D220Ti breakup at high volumes, it came across as very edgy harshness over the top of the fundamental "sounds". It was most prominent with male voices, such as SRV. My question was if the drivers have a "break in" time like woofers do; where the surround and cone loosen up, etc.

At any rate, at normal listening volumes they are as sweet and well-behaved as can be.

However, about that low mid / upper bass peak, I REALLY don't want to open the cabs up again, but :dunno: I just have a layer of fiberglass insulation around the inside of the cabinet. Should adding more stuffing inside the cabinet tame it down? I braced and sealed the cabinet, but I'm sure it's not completely airtight. I didn't want to glue the rear baffle in place, but I stuffed rope caulk into everywhere I could see.
 
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