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Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker

I think Gordon Has said that it may be worthwhile to remove the diaphragm and Kerfutz with them as Zilch would say. BTW That is speaker terminology.:D

I realize taking them apart is not what you had in mind but remember this is DIY. Also it is imperative to seal the cab very well. If there are leaks it can make a variety of noises vibrations and the like. I find for myself I need to slow down and think about what I am doing so it comes out as I would like it to.:yes:

BTW Happy 10k to Zilch and thanks for your commitment to DIY!:banana:
 
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jackgiff said:
I finished my end of the LR4's and turned it over to Zilch to verify, and then went on to see what it takes to make the EconoWave crossover work with the DE250/QSC combo at 1.6 KHz. Now he has his hands full.

Edit: I do plan to go back and see if making the HF output inductor larger and the coupling cap smaller (as per Gordon's suggestions to "lower the Q") will simplify the circuit. My last post on the LR4 was in post #8063.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I'm with ya again.:D I'll see if I have the parts to change out one of my E'wave crossover boards.



Russellc
 
Zilch said:
That's 2-Pi alignment with boundary reinforcement augmenting the bass response, and probably not significantly affecting the high frequencies, but whatever is off to the four sides is still generating reflections. Try it outside to see the difference, like standing normally in front of the garage door. Door up is 2-Pi, door down is 1-Pi, ground and door comprising two boundaries.

If it's relatively quiet out there, you also have the potential to do ground-plane measurements in the driveway, as well.... :yes:
Click to expand...
Thanks Zilch- that just went "in one ear and out the other" (let alone Mr. Parham's excellent posts) :eek: LOL

If I could just "dummy down" the discussion just a wee bit...
All this current discussion on dispersion and nulls is based on the "suggested" 90x50 rectangular PT horn (JBL or Pyle) correct?
How would this discussion be affected by the use of the 100x100 rectangular PT horn? (i.e. PT-F1010HF as used in the AC1212/00- yes I know these are 1.5" throat)

Somehow I assumed (based on the on-going dispersion model discussions) that going for the maximum dispersion pattern would be most desirable, so I've purchased a set of these- but is the 100 vertical actually too much for floor mounted (e.g. 24-36" floor to center) monitor for general home music/critical listening? (i.e due to more ceiling/floor bounce?) I guess my listening space would be considered "nearfield" at ~9-10ft from the speakers. Would the 90x50 actually be better for this application?

Thanks for the unbelievable experience here in this thread. (It's spawned no fewer than 3 separate speaker projects to further "amuse" the wife) LOL :thmbsp:
WopOnTour
 
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jhoyt said:
However, about that low mid / upper bass peak, I REALLY don't want to open the cabs up again, but :dunno: I just have a layer of fiberglass insulation around the inside of the cabinet. Should adding more stuffing inside the cabinet tame it down? I braced and sealed the cabinet, but I'm sure it's not completely airtight. I didn't want to glue the rear baffle in place, but I stuffed rope caulk into everywhere I could see.
Click to expand...
It matters. Make sure you've got a good seal everywhere. Duffinator thought he did with his Barzilays 'til he brought them to ZilchLab and we tested with the ports closed using ZilchPlugz™, a 30 Hz tone, and a bell-less stethoscope:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232380

Listen for the motorboat.

juniorJBL said:
BTW Happy 10k to Zilch and thanks for your commitment to DIY!:banana:
Click to expand...

jhoyt said:
Congrats, Zilch!
Click to expand...

Thanks, guyz!

[It's a MIRACLE considering the number of Procedural Warnings on file. ;) ]

WopOnTour said:
How would this discussion be affected by the use of the 100x100 rectangular PT horn? (i.e. PT-F1010HF as used in the AC1212/00- yes I know these are 1.5" throat)

Somehow I assumed (based on the on-going dispersion model discussions) that going for the maximum dispersion pattern would be most desirable, so I've purchased a set of these- but is the 100 vertical actually too much for floor mounted (e.g. 24-36" floor to center) monitor for general home music/critical listening? (i.e due to more ceiling/floor bounce?) I guess my listening space would be considered "nearfield" at ~9-10ft from the speakers. Would the 90x50 actually be better for this application?
Click to expand...
In terms of these considerations, 90° x 50° is the preferred dispersion pattern for minimizing ceiling and floor reflections; a taller vertical pattern generates more. Calculate the angles in your own listening situation.

Jack and I both started out with the 100° x 100° PT-F, and still have them in our benchmark systems. My 4430 mains have the same pattern, and a bunch of others around here as well. The 6" square eWaveguides that some are using are 90° x 90°. Nearfield, they can be a better choice; midfield they have more "ambience." Farfield, the nulls are less important, because the listening angles are narrower. Pick your pleasure.... :thmbsp:

Sidebar: 2-Pi steradians (a unit of measure of a solid angle,) comprise a hemisphere. A speaker in the center of a wall has the benefit of one boundary reinforcing its radiation pattern, also termed "halfspace." Move it down to the floor or into a corner, and it is then radiating into one quarter of a sphere, a 90° solid angle formed by the intersection of two boundaries, a 1-Pi alignment, with additional reinforcement of the low frequencies.

Pop Quiz: How many Pi on the floor in the corner?
 
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Where to start …

I started by reading everything linked in the first post and I’m still lost. I’m starting with a blank slate as far as speakers go. I have a tube Eico pushing ~12w so I need to build something efficient. As far as style goes, I would like something with early 60’s style, very traditional. Duffinator’s speakers look AMAZING, but there is no way I could afford what he spent on CD’s so I think I’ll stick with the E-Wave CD and maybe an upgraded high efficiency woofer.

Question #1- How large of an enclosure should I be looking for? Volume matters but how big is too big? How small is too small?

Question #2- Sealed or ported? If ported how do you determine port volume and length?

Question #3- I have been scouring my local CL, local paper, and good will and have yet to find anything that isn’t an entry level Polk book shelf, un named tower speakers, or Bose. Where are all the nice cabinet speakers hiding?
 
Tube King said:
Where to start …
...

Question #3- I have been scouring my local CL, local paper, and good will and have yet to find anything that isn’t an entry level Polk book shelf, un named tower speakers, or Bose. Where are all the nice cabinet speakers hiding?
Click to expand...

I know the feeling. I have NEVER seen vintage cabinets like what some of the guys here come up with. Where I live, nobody has, and probably never had the space for them. So some traveling is required to find those things.

I have a suggestion. Did you see the nice job Jackgiff did on finishing the PE Trapezoidal Box Kit? And those nice retro legs he made for them? I think some efficient 12" woofers from Eminence or the B&Cs Jack used, will work in that box size, ported. The trade off is no low bass, but that's high efficiency.
attachment.php
 
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Tube King said:
I started by reading everything linked in the first post and I’m still lost. I’m starting with a blank slate as far as speakers go. I have a tube Eico pushing ~12w so I need to build something efficient.
Click to expand...
The high-efficiency crossover variant will accommodate woofers up to 100 dB/1 watt. That's an extremely efficient woofer.

Tube King said:
Question #1- How large of an enclosure should I be looking for? Volume matters but how big is too big? How small is too small?
Click to expand...
Designer's choice, really. There are large and small high-efficiency woofers. The typical range used for eWaves is 8" - 12" diameter. The standard eWaveguide is 12" wide, which establishes a minimum baffle width somewhat wider than that. Some are also building with the 6" square waveguide, allowing a smaller form factor.

Tube King said:
Question #2- Sealed or ported? If ported how do you determine port volume and length?
Click to expand...
Now we get down to it. If you want to maximize the bass response from an efficient woofer in a reasonable-size box, that virtually mandates a ported alignment. One way to develop a "feel" for what is required is to look at the recommended enclosures and tuning for the various drivers you might consider in the Parts Express woofer selection guide:

http://www.parts-express.com/resources/woofer-selection-guide.cfm

The printed version of that chart in the PE catalog includes port lengths and diameters.

There, you see there are few woofers with efficiencies higher than 90 dB/1W. If you want to build using a woofer with efficiency higher than 95 dB/1W, you must almost of necessity move up to more expensive pro sound woofers.

Tube King said:
Question #3- I have been scouring my local CL, local paper, and good will and have yet to find anything that isn’t an entry level Polk book shelf, un named tower speakers, or Bose. Where are all the nice cabinet speakers hiding?
Click to expand...
That's where they are, basically, though it may take some patience and determination to find them. Another option is to do what was commonly done in the "vintage" years, build the cabinets yourself. Three or four of us are enjoying our eWaves in JBL C36 cabinets built according to these plans:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/plans/c35-c39.htm

Here's mine:

attachment.php
 
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Fine looking waves Z, I love the retro JBL look. Also, congratulations on passing 10000, although they do have very good modern drugs for Obsesive Compulsive disorder:D:D:D
 
I seem to recall Zilch using quite a bit of stuffing in the original build. I used Walmart polyfill in my Mach 1 conversions and don't hear an obvious mid bass peak. However, I'm not equipped for measurement. I used about a pound or so per speaker (speakers have about 2.2 cu ft free volume).


jhoyt said:
However, about that low mid / upper bass peak, I REALLY don't want to open the cabs up again, but :dunno: I just have a layer of fiberglass insulation around the inside of the cabinet. Should adding more stuffing inside the cabinet tame it down? I braced and sealed the cabinet, but I'm sure it's not completely airtight. I didn't want to glue the rear baffle in place, but I stuffed rope caulk into everywhere I could see.
Click to expand...
 
Well I've found another pair of LE14A's and I'm thinking of building another set of Ewaves...

I notice the DE250's are on sale at PE right now but looking back through the posts it looks like they might not be usable low enough to mate with the 900hz crossover for the LE14A. Is this the case are have any of you used these two together successfully?
 
Very nice post with a ton of informative information. I really appreciate the fact that you approach these topics from a stand point of knowledge and information
instead of the typical “I think” mentality that you see so much on the internet these days.
 
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Vaughn said:
Well I've found another pair of LE14A's and I'm thinking of building another set of Ewaves...

I notice the DE250's are on sale at PE right now but looking back through the posts it looks like they might not be usable low enough to mate with the 900hz crossover for the LE14A. Is this the case are have any of you used these two together successfully?
Click to expand...

The acoustic crossover on the LE14A is not at 900 Hz. The acoustic response of the woofer (with a measured "bump" at around 1KHz-1.5KHz) COMBINES with the electrical crossover (nominally at 900Hz) to give an acoustic crossover at about 1500 Hz. Works fine with the Ewave... the same high-pass is used on the LE14A version as the "bone standard" setup. You should also be able to get it to work with the DE250, AFAIK...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
GordonW said:
The acoustic crossover on the LE14A is not at 900 Hz. The acoustic response of the woofer (with a measured "bump" at around 1KHz-1.5KHz) COMBINES with the electrical crossover (nominally at 900Hz) to give an acoustic crossover at about 1500 Hz. Works fine with the Ewave... the same high-pass is used on the LE14A version as the "bone standard" setup. You should also be able to get it to work with the DE250, AFAIK...

Regards,
Gordon.
Click to expand...

I see, that makes sense. Thanks Gordon:scratch2:

anyone else have any experience with these two together?

I built a pair before with the Selenium drivers and LE14a's and was very impressed. They ended up going to a friend and I currently have Forte's(the first version). I wish I had the Ewaves side by side with them to do a comparison. I think the only way for that to happen now is to build another set and have the Forte's and Ewaves duke it out for the honor of being in my home:D From memory I would say the Forte's have slightly better mids but the Ewaves with the LE14A had excellent bass. The Forte's do seem more extended on the top end, or perhaps have better dispersion at higher frequencies. I did install the new titanium diaphragms and autoformers on the Forte's as well as completely rebuilding the crossover with better quality parts. The only pieces of test equipment I own are a voltmeter and my ears so I am afraid my data is more of the "wank" variety:stupid:
Of course with the DE250's and LE14a's the Forte's could be bested in all areas:dunno:
 
briantomhson said:
Very nice post with a ton of informative information. I really appreciate the fact that you approach these topics from a stand point of knowledge and information
instead of the typical “I think” mentality that you see so much on the internet these days.
Click to expand...

Welcome to Ewave. Not to brag, but in these 500+ pages you'll find just about every aspect of speaker technology touched on and many of them hammered into the ground. It's not especially linear but reading the significant parts will give you a decent grounding in the fundamentals of crossovers, compression drivers/waveguides and woofer cabinet tuning. At that point you'll be qualified to debunk a lot of the internet experts' 'I Think' from an informed perspective.
 
GordonW said:
Pi/2. One-eighth space, in a "triple corner".
Click to expand...
Yes, it's playing into 1/8 of a hemisphere, also know as "Half-Pi."

[Hand it OVER! :D ]

§ 2.2.1 here:

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/technology/whitepapers/loudspeakers_rooms.pdf

Vaughn said:
Anyone else have any experience with these two together?
Click to expand...
Yes, I'm playing that combination right now, as I have LE14As in my test stand. To mate DE250 and the standard eWaveguides requires using a throat adapter. That works, but is not optimum, and we are thus working through the details of the DE250/QSC446 combination. I also tried the 18-Sound XT1086, which is fine, too, but neither of these is "Plug 'n' Play" in detail.

Bauhausler said:
Welcome to Ewave. Not to brag, but in these 500+ pages you'll find just about every aspect of speaker technology touched on and many of them hammered into the ground.
Click to expand...
It's been a serious endeavor from the git, but that don't mean we aren't having bunches of fun learning about this stuff here.... :thmbsp:
 
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Vaughn said:
Well I've found another pair of LE14A's and I'm thinking of building another set of Ewaves...

I notice the DE250's are on sale at PE right now but looking back through the posts it looks like they might not be usable low enough to mate with the 900hz crossover for the LE14A. Is this the case are have any of you used these two together successfully?
Click to expand...

Geddes crosses that driver over at 900hz, but uses a bunch of notch filters doing it.

Russellc
 
One pair of Econo-Wave modified Advent/2W. They'll get auditioned when the Yamaha monitors come off the wall stands.
 

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