Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker
- Thread starter Zilch
- Start date
Hi Z, please send me money to buy measuring equipment.
I did two using the 12" PA310 variant, one each with QSC and eWaveguide. Check the "Flex It" project matrix here:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=215536
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=215536
So I have bit of an thread goin on back on diyaudio (See Here) trying to figure out the best bang for buck loud clear system that I can purchase for $300 in parts not including cabs.
A number of ppl including Zilch have directed me towards Econowaves. Unfortunately Australia has piss poor support for lower end pricing DIY audio projects. Ordering from Parts-Express and paying $150ish for postage is actually more cost effective then ordering locally.
I'm trying to design the loudest clearest system I can for music play. I only want 2 speakers MTM, norm tower, bookshelf i'm open (potentially a sub in the next few months). If I can shake things off the walls and have good sound I'm happy. At this point anything is an upgrade.
I am starting from nothing but a SPDIF output on my computer and a desire for clear , loud bassy music. I am budgeting $300 in parts, $150 to a 2nd hand Receiver/Amp and (unfortunately) $150ish to postage, more on this below.
I listen to D&B, Electronic, Trance, Trip Hop, RnB, PoP, Metal, other stuff in pretty much that order.
So 2xSelenium D220Ti-8's + 2x Pyle Pro PH612 = $120.46 on Parts-Exp atm. I can have these landed for $200 total in Australia. I can't even find these listed in Australia or closer then the US of A.
So I'd have another $180 to throw at giving the bass some grunt and putting together a cross over. Cross overs for Econowave seem to sit bout $60ish dollars. So $120 for LF Drivers??
My Biggest question: Will I get enough bass out of a single 12" in either tower? If so I'd just build the Econowave Standard and be thankful that it will be so much better then my Logitech X-540's.
Should I aim to put together a sub straight away? Would 2x 10" in each speaker make a big difference? If the DC300-8 12" are nice speakers I can get 4 and the 2 waveguides delivered for $270 total, lol. Would that sound good?
I really don't know enough about hifi, speakers or diy enough at this point to make up my mind. If I had a solid direction of research to head into I'd be a lot more set. A set of plans would set my world on fire. There is just so many drivers + stats + crossover making procedures that I'm lost as all hell lol.
Thanks for your time and any suggestions. Links to plans are always very very appreciated.
Mitch
A number of ppl including Zilch have directed me towards Econowaves. Unfortunately Australia has piss poor support for lower end pricing DIY audio projects. Ordering from Parts-Express and paying $150ish for postage is actually more cost effective then ordering locally.
I'm trying to design the loudest clearest system I can for music play. I only want 2 speakers MTM, norm tower, bookshelf i'm open (potentially a sub in the next few months). If I can shake things off the walls and have good sound I'm happy. At this point anything is an upgrade.
I am starting from nothing but a SPDIF output on my computer and a desire for clear , loud bassy music. I am budgeting $300 in parts, $150 to a 2nd hand Receiver/Amp and (unfortunately) $150ish to postage, more on this below.
I listen to D&B, Electronic, Trance, Trip Hop, RnB, PoP, Metal, other stuff in pretty much that order.
So 2xSelenium D220Ti-8's + 2x Pyle Pro PH612 = $120.46 on Parts-Exp atm. I can have these landed for $200 total in Australia. I can't even find these listed in Australia or closer then the US of A.
So I'd have another $180 to throw at giving the bass some grunt and putting together a cross over. Cross overs for Econowave seem to sit bout $60ish dollars. So $120 for LF Drivers??
My Biggest question: Will I get enough bass out of a single 12" in either tower? If so I'd just build the Econowave Standard and be thankful that it will be so much better then my Logitech X-540's.
Should I aim to put together a sub straight away? Would 2x 10" in each speaker make a big difference? If the DC300-8 12" are nice speakers I can get 4 and the 2 waveguides delivered for $270 total, lol. Would that sound good?
I really don't know enough about hifi, speakers or diy enough at this point to make up my mind. If I had a solid direction of research to head into I'd be a lot more set. A set of plans would set my world on fire. There is just so many drivers + stats + crossover making procedures that I'm lost as all hell lol.
Thanks for your time and any suggestions. Links to plans are always very very appreciated.
Mitch
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donprice
Wound up workin' at a gas station....
Mitch,
eWaves can be really cost effective when you can find used cabinets loaded with good woofers. The approach requires some combination of time, research, hunting, and luck. Being modular, you can always upgrade later as time and budget allows.
You probably can't beat the DC300-8 for value. All of the crossover work is already done to mate up with the D220Ti and 6x12 waveguide. All you need to do build some cabinets. You've probably already seen this but here is is again:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1620779#post1620779
That's about as close to a complete set of plans as you can get.
Good luck!
eWaves can be really cost effective when you can find used cabinets loaded with good woofers. The approach requires some combination of time, research, hunting, and luck. Being modular, you can always upgrade later as time and budget allows.
You probably can't beat the DC300-8 for value. All of the crossover work is already done to mate up with the D220Ti and 6x12 waveguide. All you need to do build some cabinets. You've probably already seen this but here is is again:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1620779#post1620779
That's about as close to a complete set of plans as you can get.
Good luck!
santa
Well-Known Member
I am planning to use the D220Ti and pyle waveguide as a tweeter in a three way system operating from 7K (electronic XO)or so up.
I would like to flatten the response so should I use the existing 24R in parallel, the 15R in series bypassed with the 1.5 cap or are there other values more suitable for what I would like to do?
Thanks !
I would like to flatten the response so should I use the existing 24R in parallel, the 15R in series bypassed with the 1.5 cap or are there other values more suitable for what I would like to do?
Thanks !
Several members from down under have built eWaves successfully. The JBL waveguide is available from the JBL Pro parts distributor, Jaycar, is it? That's not going to save you much in shipping, tho.
You're already deviating from eWave design by desiring to build a 3-way. Our highpass includes the core filter as part of the HF compensation for Selenium D220Ti. If your multi-amp system does not include DSP EQ, you're going to have to bone up on doing it passively, and either way, having measurement capability is essential to getting it "right."
As I've shown in Tech Talk's "Flex Your PCD Mettle" thread, it's possible to build with a variety of woofers, waveguides, and compression drivers using that process.... :yes:
You're already deviating from eWave design by desiring to build a 3-way. Our highpass includes the core filter as part of the HF compensation for Selenium D220Ti. If your multi-amp system does not include DSP EQ, you're going to have to bone up on doing it passively, and either way, having measurement capability is essential to getting it "right."
As I've shown in Tech Talk's "Flex Your PCD Mettle" thread, it's possible to build with a variety of woofers, waveguides, and compression drivers using that process.... :yes:
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Metrobilly
Member
skywave-rider
Slumming in Akihabara
Those look great Metrobilly.
I also like the skybuddy on the shelf.
I also like the skybuddy on the shelf.
Brett
Active Member
You;re probably not going to better the PE prices for a lot of stuff, but UPS can be expensive at this end in terms of fees on top of postage. I'd call UPS in Oz and ask what they'll be.
Depending upon what you want, I know most of the sources for parts in Oz and postage friendly shippers in many other parts of the world.
Jaycar is our version of RatShack with myriad cheapo radio controlled helicopters and other electronic junk though they still seem to have more components than RatShack do. Once upon a time they were good and I had a trade account, but you can do better elsewhere. they are definitely not the JBL distributor, which is still Jands. IIRC they are charging $A30 for the original WGs (similar to the Pyles).
After vacillating around on my surrounds, I think I'm going to just build the 3 way Ewave variant I knocked together to test ages ago. Overkill, but I might as well use the drivers as have them sit in a box.
A 5 cuft. "Standard" build earns Metrobilly recognition as "Official AK E'Waver" #109.... :yes:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2260584#post2260584
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2260584#post2260584
Hey Everyone,
Thank-you a heap for all your replies. Seeing as I know nearly nothing about cross over design and I own no measurement tools, let alone the expertise to interpret them, I am leaning heavily towards making the Econowave Standard.
On the regards of converting old speakers, I don't know nearly enough about what is quality or not to ever be able to spot something worth converting.
The concept of building a tower with D220Ti and 2x Dc300- is fascinating but I would have no idea how to construct the passive cross over or cabinet etc so I'll keep it easy. I had the notion in my head that you could run them in serial and maintain a 2 way setup, but obviously I was misguided lol. Might try and find speaker building 201 in australia and have a read. When I learn more I can always investigate the matter and make new cabs easy enough.
Total Cost atm: $416 Delivered for Xovers and drivers.
I will continue to investigate Australian options, because I'm so damn frustrated with paying $140 shipping
Peace out, again thanks for the help.
Mitch
Thank-you a heap for all your replies. Seeing as I know nearly nothing about cross over design and I own no measurement tools, let alone the expertise to interpret them, I am leaning heavily towards making the Econowave Standard.
On the regards of converting old speakers, I don't know nearly enough about what is quality or not to ever be able to spot something worth converting.
The concept of building a tower with D220Ti and 2x Dc300- is fascinating but I would have no idea how to construct the passive cross over or cabinet etc so I'll keep it easy. I had the notion in my head that you could run them in serial and maintain a 2 way setup, but obviously I was misguided lol. Might try and find speaker building 201 in australia and have a read. When I learn more I can always investigate the matter and make new cabs easy enough.
Total Cost atm: $416 Delivered for Xovers and drivers.
I will continue to investigate Australian options, because I'm so damn frustrated with paying $140 shipping
Peace out, again thanks for the help.
Mitch
juniorJBL
SUB 1500 :)
Mitch
You could always get everything you need for ewave std. as well as the extra woofs and have a try at it after building the first. Then as you do more you can experiment without having to order again. I know it is over your budget by a bit, but, it would save on some shipping.
Also while saving the extra you could be looking local and get some feedback on what you find to see if it will work. :scratch2:
You could always get everything you need for ewave std. as well as the extra woofs and have a try at it after building the first. Then as you do more you can experiment without having to order again. I know it is over your budget by a bit, but, it would save on some shipping.
Also while saving the extra you could be looking local and get some feedback on what you find to see if it will work. :scratch2:
Ok So,
Does anyone have recommendations on the best box I can build an Econowave standard into. Seeing as I am not using old boxes but making them from scratch, I figured I should try and find a plan for a box that augments the speakers to the best of it's ability. Zilch mentioned somewhere in this thread that the trap boxes from Parts-express were chosen as a compromise to keep it simple?
I hoping that when I build it all, I can document the process and post it up here as a guide for other newbies. Seems this whole thread is missing a step by step guide and it would help the nubs (like me) alot. lol.
Thanks,
Mitch
->Then in 6 months I'll probably get the itch and spend wayyyy too much money and convert them into 3 ways or something else lol. When I start into stuff I just can't stop tinkering, you should see my computer....
Does anyone have recommendations on the best box I can build an Econowave standard into. Seeing as I am not using old boxes but making them from scratch, I figured I should try and find a plan for a box that augments the speakers to the best of it's ability. Zilch mentioned somewhere in this thread that the trap boxes from Parts-express were chosen as a compromise to keep it simple?
I hoping that when I build it all, I can document the process and post it up here as a guide for other newbies. Seems this whole thread is missing a step by step guide and it would help the nubs (like me) alot. lol.
Thanks,
Mitch
->Then in 6 months I'll probably get the itch and spend wayyyy too much money and convert them into 3 ways or something else lol. When I start into stuff I just can't stop tinkering, you should see my computer....
Well, I finally got around to building what I'm going to call, for lack of a better or less offensive name 
, the "Cheap-S***-O-Wave.
Used the standard waveguide (the Pyle PH612, but the Dayton worked just as well when I compared it in one of the cabinets), and a Goldwood GT400CD piezo horn driver (a clone of the CTS/Motorola KSN-1142). Total cost of this combo, as I've mentioned before, is about $17 per speaker cabinet (horn flare AND driver combined).
I needed a simple set of vocal-PA/small panel room presentation speakers for Anime Weekend Atlanta, that could go into a self-contained roll-around rack (amp, mixer, DVD/CD player, mic, speakers and cable all go into a single rack with wheels, for instant transportability)... for the speakers, I used a set of four reconed 8" Harman/JBL/Infinity woofers (since I happened to have the frames around, and a bunch of MAT Electronics 8" woofer cones, it was easier than ordering new woofers), and the horn/driver combo at hand. I built some plywood cabinets, about 2 cubic feet vented at about 30 Hz, and mounted the two woofers and the horn in a vertical alignment.
Now, one word right up front- these driver/horn combos do NOT have the lower midrange extension of the standard E-wave combo... they're more like TRUE TWEETERS, rather than mid-tweeter capable like the normal E-waves. As in, they really didn't go much below 2500 Hz. But, with small woofers (such as 6.5" or 8"- I'd recommend using two woofers in parallel, like I did), they can do pretty well. And, like all E-wave variants, the high frequencies are STILL constant dispersion, unlike dome tweeters... that's a significant advantage, even after considering the bandwidth isn't any more than a dome tweeter... and, that there's few good dome tweeters that don't cost at least as much as this combo...
Efficiency is moderate, I'd say. Probably about 91 dB, once the filter was in place. I used a modification of the E-wave "shelf circuit" from the crossover. Here's the wiring:
From the input- 5.5uf cap, feeding a parallel 15 ohm/2.3uf combo, then a 10 ohm resistor to ground, then the piezo driver. The first cap is just to limit the low-end to the piezo... it can be adjusted to blend the driver to the woofer, if necessary. I did not use an L-pad... in this case I did not need one- but, the 10 ohm resistor could be replaced with an L-pad (probably would require re-tuning the first cap and the resistor/cap in the shelf circuit a bit) if some padding was needed.
In my case, happily, the woofers, with the MAT cones and felt dustcaps, performed with negligible break-up mode problems, up to 2500 Hz or so, then rolled off... so I used them "wide open", akin to how the woofers in most EPI systems are run... the woofers "acoustically cross over" to the horn/piezo tweeters.
So, how did it sound? Well, a bit of a mixed bag. Definitely doesn't have the "air" of the Selenium driver- I suspect it's down a bit by around 18KHz or so. Maybe if I used the 'real thing' KSN1142 driver, it would be better... but, by that time, it's almost as expensive as the Selenium D220Ti, so that wouldn't really make economic sense. But, within that limitation, it actually sounded amazingly good. Very good detail and resolution, and very well behaved, save for a slight tendency for "metallic" sounds on sibilant highs, when very close to the speaker (there was no such observed problem, at normal- i.e, greater than 6 feet away from the speaker- listening distances).
An interesting project, might be to use some inexpensive Goldwood, Jamo or Peerless India 8" woofers from Parts Express, with this horn and driver combo. It's especially interesting when you consider that you can get ALL of the parts needed (the Dayton 612 horn flares, the Goldwood GT400CD drivers, and four of the Jamo 8" woofers) for a pair of dual-8" speakers, for $62... that's ALL the drivers for a PAIR... from Parts Express. Here's the breakdown:
Dayton HS6512 Waveguide- PE 270-318 $13.50 x 2 = $27.00
Goldwood GT400CD piezo horn driver- PE 270-069 $3.50 each x 2 = $7.00
Jamo 8" woofer model 20418, 20318 or 20316 from Parts Express : $7 each x 4 = $28.00
Add about $25 of crossover components, and a box...
Regards,
Gordon.
, the "Cheap-S***-O-Wave.Used the standard waveguide (the Pyle PH612, but the Dayton worked just as well when I compared it in one of the cabinets), and a Goldwood GT400CD piezo horn driver (a clone of the CTS/Motorola KSN-1142). Total cost of this combo, as I've mentioned before, is about $17 per speaker cabinet (horn flare AND driver combined).
I needed a simple set of vocal-PA/small panel room presentation speakers for Anime Weekend Atlanta, that could go into a self-contained roll-around rack (amp, mixer, DVD/CD player, mic, speakers and cable all go into a single rack with wheels, for instant transportability)... for the speakers, I used a set of four reconed 8" Harman/JBL/Infinity woofers (since I happened to have the frames around, and a bunch of MAT Electronics 8" woofer cones, it was easier than ordering new woofers), and the horn/driver combo at hand. I built some plywood cabinets, about 2 cubic feet vented at about 30 Hz, and mounted the two woofers and the horn in a vertical alignment.
Now, one word right up front- these driver/horn combos do NOT have the lower midrange extension of the standard E-wave combo... they're more like TRUE TWEETERS, rather than mid-tweeter capable like the normal E-waves. As in, they really didn't go much below 2500 Hz. But, with small woofers (such as 6.5" or 8"- I'd recommend using two woofers in parallel, like I did), they can do pretty well. And, like all E-wave variants, the high frequencies are STILL constant dispersion, unlike dome tweeters... that's a significant advantage, even after considering the bandwidth isn't any more than a dome tweeter... and, that there's few good dome tweeters that don't cost at least as much as this combo...
Efficiency is moderate, I'd say. Probably about 91 dB, once the filter was in place. I used a modification of the E-wave "shelf circuit" from the crossover. Here's the wiring:
From the input- 5.5uf cap, feeding a parallel 15 ohm/2.3uf combo, then a 10 ohm resistor to ground, then the piezo driver. The first cap is just to limit the low-end to the piezo... it can be adjusted to blend the driver to the woofer, if necessary. I did not use an L-pad... in this case I did not need one- but, the 10 ohm resistor could be replaced with an L-pad (probably would require re-tuning the first cap and the resistor/cap in the shelf circuit a bit) if some padding was needed.
In my case, happily, the woofers, with the MAT cones and felt dustcaps, performed with negligible break-up mode problems, up to 2500 Hz or so, then rolled off... so I used them "wide open", akin to how the woofers in most EPI systems are run... the woofers "acoustically cross over" to the horn/piezo tweeters.
So, how did it sound? Well, a bit of a mixed bag. Definitely doesn't have the "air" of the Selenium driver- I suspect it's down a bit by around 18KHz or so. Maybe if I used the 'real thing' KSN1142 driver, it would be better... but, by that time, it's almost as expensive as the Selenium D220Ti, so that wouldn't really make economic sense. But, within that limitation, it actually sounded amazingly good. Very good detail and resolution, and very well behaved, save for a slight tendency for "metallic" sounds on sibilant highs, when very close to the speaker (there was no such observed problem, at normal- i.e, greater than 6 feet away from the speaker- listening distances).
An interesting project, might be to use some inexpensive Goldwood, Jamo or Peerless India 8" woofers from Parts Express, with this horn and driver combo. It's especially interesting when you consider that you can get ALL of the parts needed (the Dayton 612 horn flares, the Goldwood GT400CD drivers, and four of the Jamo 8" woofers) for a pair of dual-8" speakers, for $62... that's ALL the drivers for a PAIR... from Parts Express. Here's the breakdown:
Dayton HS6512 Waveguide- PE 270-318 $13.50 x 2 = $27.00
Goldwood GT400CD piezo horn driver- PE 270-069 $3.50 each x 2 = $7.00
Jamo 8" woofer model 20418, 20318 or 20316 from Parts Express : $7 each x 4 = $28.00
Add about $25 of crossover components, and a box...
Regards,
Gordon.
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Metrobilly
Member
The PE trap boxes are too small for the DC300. My 5 cu/ft boxes tuned to 25 hz may be too big. Modeling program says they are -3db at 25 Hz and with room gain that could result in too much low bass (is that possible?) depending on the room and placement. I may need to EQ mine down a bit on the low end. I guess the optimum box is 3-5 cu/ft bass reflex. I wonder what others using that woofer have found?
If there's too much perceived bass in-room, try lowering the vent frequency, to say, 22Hz or so (or even as low as 19-20 Hz, if needed) in the 5 cubic foot box. I've found that this can sometimes make the response curve more "match" room gain... make it more of a "extended bass shelf" response, than a pure "flat down to f3") response...
EDIT: An attractive alignment, would be maybe 4 cubic feet, tuned to 22-23 Hz. F3 of around 28 Hz. Should give pretty good transient response, too...
Regards,
Gordon.
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No, that is not possible (with real world full range speakers). Too much bass or midbass sure, but below 35, a couple dB bump is not a bad thing- so long as you're not making overtones along with it or shifting the tonal balance higher in frequency.
I found a speaker box calculator online see: http://www.kbapps.com/audio/speakerdesign/calculators/index.html I used the vented port single driver calculator.
After entering the details about the DC300 (I don't have volume dimensions for the woofer and horn/driver which I imagine would make a difference to these calculations.) It recommends a cabinet with internals of 56.16 cm x 90.87cm x 34.71cm (WxHxD) with a single port 12.7cm x 28.3 long (5inches x nearly 12). It calculates this enclosure giving a Fb 23.91 Hz and F3 of 22.71Hz. This cabinet is 177 liters (6.2 cubic feet). This doesn't quite seem right compared to what you guys recommend.
A second calculator http://www.ajdesigner.com/fl_subwoofer/subwoofer.php Recommends 111.75 Liters with a f3 of 27.245 fb of 26.2 1 port at 5inches and 40.248 cm long. This box is 3.94 cubic feet and matches your recommendations. Should be noted this calculator is for a subwoofer, and doesn't take into account the waveguide etc.
How do you designate H W D for this box? Anything that adds up to 111.75cm and can fit the drivers?
I will keep reading.
Mitch
Edit: I am going for a trap shape. I have found some interesting and free calculators including boxnotes. From what I can find regarding the overall subject the major point is to ensure that no dimension is the same size or 1.5 or 2x another to avoid resonance.
After entering the details about the DC300 (I don't have volume dimensions for the woofer and horn/driver which I imagine would make a difference to these calculations.) It recommends a cabinet with internals of 56.16 cm x 90.87cm x 34.71cm (WxHxD) with a single port 12.7cm x 28.3 long (5inches x nearly 12). It calculates this enclosure giving a Fb 23.91 Hz and F3 of 22.71Hz. This cabinet is 177 liters (6.2 cubic feet). This doesn't quite seem right compared to what you guys recommend.
A second calculator http://www.ajdesigner.com/fl_subwoofer/subwoofer.php Recommends 111.75 Liters with a f3 of 27.245 fb of 26.2 1 port at 5inches and 40.248 cm long. This box is 3.94 cubic feet and matches your recommendations. Should be noted this calculator is for a subwoofer, and doesn't take into account the waveguide etc.
How do you designate H W D for this box? Anything that adds up to 111.75cm and can fit the drivers?
I will keep reading.
Mitch
Edit: I am going for a trap shape. I have found some interesting and free calculators including boxnotes. From what I can find regarding the overall subject the major point is to ensure that no dimension is the same size or 1.5 or 2x another to avoid resonance.
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