Quality of bass reproduction is the most important aspect of fidelity

That's a pretty bold statement....I know. And, honestly, maybe a little far reaching and not entirely accurate. But let me make my case.

I picked up JBL L250's back at the end of last summer and have been trying to get these things to play in the same league as my Infintiy QLS-1s, Altec 19's, Magnepan MG-IIIa's and Acoustat Spectra 22's ever since. In spite of trying several different combinations of amps, preamps and DACs the JBL's just haven't been able to stay in the ring with any of the aforementioned. I've continued to work with them, trying a little tweak here and there by changing cables, the placement of the speakers and acoustic treatment devices but nothing has "flipped the switch", as I like to call it...you know, the one that makes you forget everything except how insanely good everything sounds and compels you to sit for hours on end in wonder and admiration, neglecting priorities and avoiding responsibility with the dedication of a teenager. The 250's have done just about everything almost good enough to get there, but just haven't been able to cross that threshold.

Until last night.

The biggest issue I've had with the JBL's has been with their somewhat sloppy reproduction of LF. It's played hell with their PRAT and melodic accuracy in the mid and upper bass regions. When those things are monkeyed up it seems most every other component of fidelity suffers as well. So severe were their transgressions I was actually losing enthusiasm for my audio hobby. I no longer found myself wanting to listen to music like I normally do and was spending a lot less time doing it. But last night I happened to be messing around behind one of the speakers while playing some Tool (Lateralus, in case you're wondering) and heard the most gawdawful bass sounds coming from the port. It was like I'd stepped in a pile of dogshit...just simply unmistakably offensive. So I grabed a handful of old socks and loosely stuffed both ports and "CLICK!" went the switch.

With that "correction" of LF reproduction everything
took a decidedly forward step in performance. Tonality, balance, resolution, scale, etc.....I mean the whole friggin' enchilada....was improved sufficiently enough that the JBL L250's now hold court with some of the finest speakers I've had the pleasure of owning/listening to. It's not the first time correcting LF has had this effect for me. When I implemented my distributed bass rig and got it dialed in the same thing happened. The big Infinities, the iconic Altecs...all of those great speakers took a definite step forward in performance when LF reproduction was optimized. Of course, the key with DB is not only making sure the system itself is right but that the mains are right as well. As wonderful as DB is it won't correct/mask LF issues with the mains and that was clearly demonstrated with the 250's. But isn't it profound how a proper LF foundation bolsters the performance of everything that's happening above it? I've been able to enjoy speakers that maybe miss the mark a little bit on top and have even found speakers that don't quite nail the mid range to be quite a fun listen...but in all those instances the common denominator that made them a fun listen was solid LF reproduction.

To me this illuminates the absolute importance of getting LF reproduction right before all else....be it through speaker placement, DRC devices, acoustic treatments, supplemental bass systems or a combination of any or all....as when it's wrong it has a unique ability to behave like a stumbling drunkard that's entered the room, creating distraction and disruption that's impossible to ignore or get used to.

So now, for the first time in about six months, I'm really looking forward to getting home tonight to listen to some music.

When you speak of LF, can you be more specific about the frequency range you are referring to?

lots more than just bass makes good hifi IMO

Fact:
On the order of three million years of evolution has focused our auditory processing hardware first and foremost on what we'd call midrange.

Opinion:
Get the midrange right, and you've got something worthy of attention. Don't get it right, try again.

Interesting point. I have given that some thought myself. When you consider how speakers work when producing music, not sine waves, this makes sense to me. With music all the frequencies within the woofer, or mid-bass drivers range are produced simultaneously, so if the lower frequencies are distorted, it has an impact on every other frequency it produces. These frequencies must blend with those produced by the tweeter, and if their not in sync or correct, they will mess up the entire range.

Stuffing socks into the rear ports may reduce this distortion, but at a cost of less bass. I have tried using the port plugs with my Energy RC-30 towers and too much bass is lost, but it does clean up whats left. Perhaps something in between will work.

This is why I believe a smaller stand mount speaker can have a compete change of character when we relieve it of it's lower bass responsibilities. My Energy's C-1 smallish bookshelf speakers with a 5.5" mid-bass driver example sound good as is in a midsize room in a corner. When I operate them with a sub, using the AVR's bass management to send the bass under 80 hz to the sub, they sound like a whole new speaker. Not just a small speaker with bass.

We can get the similar results by putting the same drivers in a larger cabinet, adding a couple 6.5" woofers to the 5.5 " driver, and install a crossover to keep the bass away from the smaller driver. This helps explain why many bigger speakers, even using the same drivers for much of the music, sound much better overall, not just more bass, than the smaller bookshelf version.

You can have the best bass in the world, but if you got screaming scratching highs, you're not going to be happy either... Or, even the opposite, no highs to mention. You need balance..

Glad you found your issue though...

mhardy6647 said:

Fact:
On the order of three million years of evolution has focused our auditory processing hardware first and foremost on what we'd call midrange.

Opinion:
Get the midrange right, and you've got something worthy of attention. Don't get it right, try again.

Click to expand...

I can't agree. I've simply heard a great mid range get disrupted by a sloppy reproduction of LF content too many times to be able to get on board with your statement.

similost said:

You can have the best bass in the world, but if you got screaming scratching highs, you're not going to be happy either... Or, even the opposite, no highs to mention. You need balance..

Glad you found your issue though...

Click to expand...

Of course, but I'm not talking about serious offenses here. Like I said, top end or mid range being a little less than optimum has not been a major deal breaker for me. But when LF is even just a little bit off it trips up the whole parade.

I sold hi-fi in the mid- to late-70’s. Good, DEEP bass without boominess was my constant quest, regarding speakers. I ended up with bi-amped ESS Amt 1B monitors. And, oddly, they also have amazing midrange thanks to the heils.

I think all aspects are important, but there are a lot of ways to skin the mid to high frequency cat. Bass seems to be more of a challenge. I say that as a bass player that has run the gambit of bass cabs trying for that same quality of sound.

However, I think technology is catching up with our appetite for good bass. There is something really creating a grassroots groundswell of interest in the bass playing community called “fEarfull”. http://greenboy.us/fEARful/


I’ll say that for my home stereo I have preferred satellite systems for a long time now – assuming the satellites go down at least to 100 hz. The first satellite system I ever heard was in around 1974. It was a Cervin Vega system with full sized satellites and an amazing sub-woofer. We played Frankenstein at volumes the Phase Linear amp could handle and let’s just say I still hold it up as one of the most amazing things I ever heard in a hi-fi store (that cost less than $50,000).

What I use now for my system is the sub-woofer and amps from a failed Harman Kardon Festival system (main computer module went out). I rewired it to take an input from my Mitsubishi pre-amp and use Polk audio satellites. It sounds quite nice and the bass literally shakes the house. For movies it can be earthquake-like. But then, I replaced the two 8” sub-woofers for much better ones from parts express (for a whopping $25 each). That is what completed the transformation.

It also makes a great practice amp for bass.

I'll be interested to know what the OP means by LF. In a 2- way, the woofers are working up into 1200Hz or more. That puts just about the full vocal range in the woofer, of course. The first thing I generally listen to is the voice, because it is the sound I experience most.

If a singer sounds good, I'm off to a good start with a speaker. In other words, that "LF" driver has to be really spot on with vocals.

But, maybe the OP meant frequencies under 100Hz, or something like that?

StarAquila said:

When you speak of LF, can you be more specific about the frequency range you are referring to?

Click to expand...

250 and down.

botrytis said:

IMHO, it is the integration and quality of ALL the musical components that are important. Quality bass is not hard to get but in combination with it all is what HiFi reproduction is all about.

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Then your definition of "quality bass" and mine are two different things because what I'm hearing as "quality bass" has not been easy to achieve and I rarely hear it in other systems.

charles 1973 said:

Stuffing socks into the rear ports may reduce this distortion, but at a cost of less bass.

Click to expand...

Ah, yes, and so illuminates yet another merit of having a distributed bass rig.

charles 1973 said:

This is why I believe a smaller stand mount speaker can have a compete change of character when we relieve it of it's lower bass responsibilities. My Energy's C-1 smallish bookshelf speakers with a 5.5" mid-bass driver example sound good as is in a midsize room in a corner. When I operate them with a sub, using the AVR's bass management to send the bass under 80 hz to the sub, they sound like a whole new speaker. Not just a small speaker with bass.

Click to expand...

And excellent point and I couldn't agree more.

I kind of agree Michael, but is it always a sin of commission rather than omission?
IOW, I'm wondering if your distributed bass setup can compensate for speakers that lack deep bass, but nothing can compensate for sloppy or slow or boomy bass?

It seems to me it would be better to have no response below 40Hz than sloppy deep bass.

mhardy6647 said:

Click to expand...

There ya go. Upper bass up to 300Hz.

jimreeves said:

I kind of agree Michael, but is it always a sin of commission rather than omission?
IOW, I'm wondering if your distributed bass setup can compensate for speakers that lack deep bass, but nothing can compensate for sloppy or slow or boomy bass?

It seems to me it would be better to have no response below 40Hz than sloppy deep bass.

Click to expand...

Yes, I find that bad bass that's there has a more detrimental effect on the reproduction of all other spectral content than bass that simply isn't there.

botrytis said:

As I said, it is not hard to get especially if you go to a distributed bass system. Rooms usually affect bass more than anything (You know where I am going) - room treatments are as important as anything else in the system.

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Nailed it for me. My system is in a loft with a ceiling that matches the roof profile. I had put my system on the "flat" end of the room and it sounded like crap, no matter what I did. Then I put the TV on top of the sub, pushed it against the slanted roof wall until the tv Touched the ceiling. I then put the polks on either side of it roughly 2' off the floor. I then put the listening chairs on the opposite wall with the opposite side roofline coming down behind them.

Holy cow. The best sound I've ever had, for the entire frequency spectrum. No bass traps. No acoustic wall treatments.

The room and how you use it is critical.

botrytis said:

You missed the point MRH was making Most or all instruments are in the 300 - 10KHz range and that is the most important to our ears. A well integrated speaker system, that is balanced throughout the frequencies, will afford the best fidelity.

BUT, every persons ears and brain have different likes and dislikes. What I like, you won't. There are no hard and fast rules in this hobby

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And with that last paragraph you touched on why bass is so important to me, as well as why I became a bass player.

Few stereos can reproduce accurately the bass pedal tones in Firth of Fifth. I used to use that album to audition systems. I also used to use Carly Simon's "That's the way I always heard it should be" for everything. It's the song that got me into the ESS's. And "Diamonds and rust" got me into ADS L810's before that. But the bass was certainly not there in those speakers.

Thing is, there are a LOT of speakers that do the "important stuff" well. But there are a lot fewer that can do the deep bass well.

I used to play bass and my systems always had to have lots of it. That was until I got my current setup and realized what components and speakers with synergy will do for Midrange and Highs. I can get by without the deepest of bass as long as the rest is accurate. I swap my Dynaudios in for more bass and the Clearfields for Mids. I can flip a sub on and off as needed if I want more.