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Time to winnow down the speakers. Cornwalls? Valencias? 605A's?

Bauhausler

Bauhausler

Rational Subjectivist
I have to make a decision on what speakers to keep and what to pass on. I've always liked high efficiency speakers (Lowthers, K-horns, La Scalas, Altec 19s), but periodically I get frustrated with teh size and go back to regular medium sensitivity cone/box speakers. Lately I went on another high efficiency binge. I came across a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls locally and snapped them up at a decent price. I used them for a few weeks in alternation with some conventional speakers, then stumbled on a pair of Altec 605A's and a pair of Altec Boleros at the same time. I think I documented all of the above in threads here.
The 605A's really aren't usable as-is in here because the boxes are too small (20" square) to develop any low bass. I tried them with powered subs, and it became obvious that they'd need serious crossover development as well to get them neutral. That won't get done.
The Boleros are the early 890A version with the 3000G tweeter. After new caps & some run in, I LOVE the tone in the mids. The bass is warmish & a bit loose, but if a speaker is going to have a bass flaw, that one's OK with me. They're a bit small for the room, which is 900 square feet and quite dead. I just don't have a good application for them, unfortunately. They're out on loan to a frustrated Lowther owner (redundant?). I don't know what will happen to those but they probably won't be the regular speakers in here as is.
Then I ran across some Altec Valencias. They're early ("A") ones without the round ports. They remind me a lot of my Model 19's, but less accurate. After much discussion & research, I determined these can be improved a lot with new crossovers, which I'm competent to make & install. They'd still lack in the bottom octaves in this room, which eats up bass energy. And they'd still lack a little brilliance due to HF rolloff. I ran them for a few weeks with and without subwoofers & really enjoyed them. If I was really married to the concept of Valencias I would work these over into something really nice with some cabinet mods & fancy crossovers.
I decided to go back & listen to the Cornwalls today. The tweeters were TOO HOT for my ears, so I opened them up & moved the tweeter lead down one notch on teh inductor to lower the level. That happened today because a friend came over complaining of the same thing on a pair of K-horns I sold him. I showed him how to change the tweeter level, then did the mod on the Cornwalls. I have them sitting on some heavy 5" oak plinths now. I can tolerate the treble this way. I wish they had more bass weight, a room-related problem. The Cornwalls are definitely the most accurate of this group of speakers. They have great clarity and articulation. They dynamics of course are out of this world. maybe this is the best compromise between accuracy and dynamics I'm going to get without a great deal of work developing & modding the 605A's or the Valencias. I wish they looked better. I've bought gear in *packing crates* that looked better than these speakers. Maybe I should just make a deal with a woodworker buddy for some badass exotic veneer, recover the grilles & just deal with them. I'll listen to them for a while longer & maybe decide (for a while).
During this time period I also rebuilt a pair of JBL Lancer 33's (Fullrange LE8 w/port). I just got a working pair of Lancer 77's I don't know what to do with (foam as stiff as a 6 month old Marshmallow Peep) and those might get some air time as well.
Most of this listening has been powered by my DIY SE 300B amp, a Yamaha C-2X preamp & Sony XA-20ES CD player, with cameo roles from a Sumo Athena preamp (nice), DB Systems 1A pre (nice), rebuilt Dyna Pat4 pre (awful) and Spectro Acoustics 217 pre (meh). I also scrounged together a JVC QL-7 ttbl with a Denon HO MC cart for some vinyl fun. FM was handled by my Punker-serviced Accuphase T-101 (best damn tuner I've ever heard). I periodically swapped in a variety of vintage tube receivers & integrateds tha tI've been overhauling from my collection, including Fisher 800, 500C, X-100, X-101, Bell 2020, Pilot SM-245 + others that were floating around.
I wonder if the bass issue would be improved by an amp with more damping. I'll have to try some PP tubes on these Cornwalls.
 
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604s Bau'ser... that's what you need. :-)

FWIW, I owned a pair of 1974 Cornies for a decade. I grew tired of their roughness. I am very happy with "A" series Valencias now, although there is no doubt that they don't go low. The midrange is far superior to the Cornies. It'd be nice to have a pair of A-5s or A-7s, but the Valencias are fine for now.

Someday I'll get some boxes made for my 604Bs, make some XOs for 'em, and be done with it.
 
mhardy6647 said:
604s Bau'ser... that's what you need. :-)

FWIW, I owned a pair of 1974 Cornies for a decade. I grew tired of their roughness. I am very happy with "A" series Valencias now, although there is no doubt that they don't go low. The midrange is far superior to the Cornies. It'd be nice to have a pair of A-5s or A-7s, but the Valencias are fine for now.

Someday I'll get some boxes made for my 604Bs, make some XOs for 'em, and be done with it.
Click to expand...

These do sound a little forward compared to the Valencias. 604's are REALLY pricey ($1000 - $1500 for the bare drivers? ), especially when you factor in the big box they need to go low. I'd probably like them, but the elbow grease to find out puts me off that project. I just sold a pair of EV Regency cabs that would probably have worked well for the 605A's if my corners weren't 36' apart in here. Unless a reasonable cabinet option becomes available, I don't think Altec coaxials are in my future.
I suppose I could swap them into the Valencia cabs, figure out some porting and put a cover panel over w/ports the 811A hole. That might be pretty close.
 
Bauhausler said:
I suppose I could swap them into the Valencia cabs, figure out some porting and put a cover panel over w/ports the 811A hole. That might be pretty close.
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And then set them on top of subs to get decent bass and the HF up at ear level?

There are ways to "fix" the Vals, but it becomes fairly comprehensive in short order. An illustration of that is coming to AK soon.

The Cornies would have been long gone here.

Like the Boleros, you're not going to get "big" out of L77s, and the tweeters require upgrade.

Ironically, your L33s have the best potential, in my view. I'm still listening to compression-driver modded AR4x here today. LE8T is beautiful, of course, but it's not "full range" by modern standards. JBL didn't called it that, either, rather, "Extended range." After augmenting the HF, you'll need subs under them, is all. Think of them as mid/high boxes.

I'd be bi- or tri-ampping them with all those amps available. Go active and get control.... :yes:
 
Zilch said:
And then set them on top of subs to get decent bass and the HF up at ear level?

There are ways to "fix" the Vals, but it becomes fairly comprehensive in short order. An illustration of that is coming to AK soon.

The Cornies would have been long gone here.

Like the Boleros, you're not going to get "big" out of L77s, and the tweeters require upgrade.

Ironically, your L33s have the best potential, in my view. I'm still listening to compression-driver modded AR4x here today. LE8T is beautiful, of course, but it's not "full range" by modern standards. JBL didn't called it that, either, rather, "Extended range." After augmenting the HF, you'll need subs under them, is all. Think of them as mid/high boxes.

I'd be bi- or tri-ampping them with all those amps available. Go active and get control.... :yes:
Click to expand...

I hooked up the L77s for the first time last night after writing that post. I also went through all of the AK threads on them & found your development work on the crossovers & tweeters. Well done. The LE10/PR10 looks like a great combo. This pair have all complete surrounds that are rock hard & produce next to no bass. Rather than re-foam them as I did the LE8's (busted surrounds) I think I'll leave the 10's alone for some future collector to do wit has he pleases. Intact L77s have collector value and I have lots of things to fool around with modding.
I think the L33s are gone for good. I lent them to a friend who was using Lowther DX3s in Azura front horns with K-horn bass bins (from me) on the bottom. He had developed that system to the point where all he could stand to listen to was the Telefunken radio in his bedroom. Too much modding, time to go back to basics. He's using the L33's with a pair of very expensive enormous Alnico ribbon tweeters on top experimentally. I'll bet that's really nice. I listened to the L33s here alone and with a pair of small horn tweeters spliced in on top as an experiment. The midrange was too colored for me. Really forward in the presence region and shouty. Probably they would have balanced out with more time to loosen up the bottom end, but they still would have needed subs on the bottom and tweeters on the top. That's more complex than I want to get into, although I have all of the gear to do it several times over. I tend to swap systems around a lot & it gets complex with line level crossovers, EQ, multiple amps, etc. I think the Boleros showed more promise in a speaker of that size and capacity. What I'm hoping for is a one-box solution, although I'd consider running the Valencias with powered subs as a compromise.
I have a novel method of providing HP crossover for fullrange speakers to be used with subs. Rather than putting a line level crossover in front of the amp or putting a CL filter ahead of the woofer, I alter the LF response of the driving amp. This is a piece of cake with a 2-stage cap coupled SE amp with no NFB. I wrote a spreadsheet to graph power response and gain vs frequency based on the passive component values in the circuit. I can alter the cap and resistor values to get the attenuation and slope that I want. It's based on the actual woofer impedance measured at 1/3 octave intervals. Works like a charm. There's the additional benefit of improving the amp's headroom because it's not trying to push the bottom two octaves through all of its reactances. This is 'cleaner' than adding more components in the signal chain. This is how an 'amp guy' approaches speaker development.
The Cornwalls are disappointing me in the bass, but that might be the room. I'll run them some more & see if they improve. This pair are from the mid '80s and haven't seen much use in the last 2 years. Also, this amp is light in the bottom end. I'll try something (this morning, probably) with better damping & extension before I make a final decision.

While writing this I cam upon a bOING bOING Gadgets post referencing the death of Audiophilia. There's so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start. It makes interesting reading for the sake of starting arguments.

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/01/07/clive-thompson-on-th.html
 
Zilch said:
And then set them on top of subs to get decent bass and the HF up at ear level?

There are ways to "fix" the Vals, but it becomes fairly comprehensive in short order. An illustration of that is coming to AK soon.

The Cornies would have been long gone here.

Like the Boleros, you're not going to get "big" out of L77s, and the tweeters require upgrade.

Ironically, your L33s have the best potential, in my view. I'm still listening to compression-driver modded AR4x here today. LE8T is beautiful, of course, but it's not "full range" by modern standards. JBL didn't called it that, either, rather, "Extended range." After augmenting the HF, you'll need subs under them, is all. Think of them as mid/high boxes.

I'd be bi- or tri-ampping them with all those amps available. Go active and get control.... :yes:
Click to expand...

I have several AR4x here, and probably at least 1 tweet is bad. I liked the sound of a restored pair in stock form, but several EPIs of the same format sounded better to me. I had a pair of KLH 2-ways here that were head and shoulders above those. 17's, I think. Another oldie I consider a great mod candidate is the Dyna A25. Much better bass than most vintage, but the dome mid and tweet could go away and not hurt my feelings. I have an ugly pair stashed, but no enthusiasm for the research. The XL version is a truly awesome vintage piece.
For bass I sometimes use a pair of AR3 cabs & woofers with an external line level crossover & a big SS amp like an Accuphase. They're very inefficient & won't go as loud as modern subs, but properly damped, they sound completely different from a typical ported powered sub. No thump, boom, hollowness or bloat. They look nice as well and are a good height to put something like a Bolero, a Spica TC60 or similar 'bookshelf' speaker on.
 
Bauhausler said:
I have several AR4x here, and probably at least 1 tweet is bad. I liked the sound of a restored pair in stock form, but several EPIs of the same format sounded better to me. I had a pair of KLH 2-ways here that were head and shoulders above those. 17's, I think. Another oldie I consider a great mod candidate is the Dyna A25.
Click to expand...
If you haven't seen it, here's the "AR4x" thing. I put that in quotes because there's no AR4x left but the boxes. If the woofers were to define them, they'd be closed-box JBL 4301/L19 with compression driver (ring radiator, actually) horn-loaded HF. With a sub, I'd use 116H-1 (L60T) woofs for more power handling capacity.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1534352#post1534352

In any case, these'll be going into PE prebuilt boxes, and by the time that's done, I'll have ~$600 in them. The "economy" version with Tang Band tweeters, shown earlier in the thread, sounds mighty nice, also. That's really equivalent to L19 with a tweeter swap and crossover mod.

This is kind of unfocused, but where I'm going is two-way in combination with your AR3 sub may be a good approach to getting the big sound you want in a modest package. It's a conceptual thing, really, thinking of small two-ways as mid/high boxes. Once one gets past demanding that they produce credible bass, the mids and highs become the prime focus. Releived of the burden of everything below, say, 60 - 80 Hz, just about any small two-way will do it, and I'm saying, DIY, there are horn-loaded HF options, as well, otherwise generally unavailable.... :yes:
 
Okay, the Cornwalls officially got the gong this morning. Too forward and aggressive in the mids. Too bright even with the tweeter tapped down. I switched back to the Valencias and even with the feeble original xovr they clobber the Cornwalls in listenability in this room. Mind you, this is in my room with my ears & music (The Shins, right now). Maybe Cornwalls are the perfect speaker for someone, but not here and now.
I'll wait for Zilch's multiamp developments on the crossovers before I change anything on the Valencias.
I'm probably going to haul the 605As up there & give them a listen, but those desperately need a better crossover (doable) & bigger boxes (highly unlikely unless something pre-made comes along) to sound their best.
Man, nonlinearities and all, the Valencias are sounding GOOD to me!
I'll probably open them up, take out the stock crossovers & install dual binding posts directly to the drivers so I can fool with crossovers externally.
I need to open up the amps & change to the 16 Ohm taps on the OPTs. I think I'm running on the 8 Ohm now, which isn't all that wrong, but isn't ideal. That's a pair of triode connected 6L6 seeing about a 20K A-A load, which is drastically inefficient.
 
Man, nonlinearities and all, the Valencias are sounding GOOD to me!
Click to expand...
They do sound good... that's the point that the "all that matters is what you can measure" camp always seems to miss.
 
Yup, gotta agree with that, even with all those sub-par Altec drivers in place. :)

So far it seems we have similar tastes in speakers Bauh, I'm looking forward to reading where you go with the 605s; I'm not sure how they stack-up to the 604-8G that I use but I suspect they are similar. The thing I like about the co-ax Altecs is that they retain much of the the Altec tone and dynamics while bringing that killer point-source imaging to the plate - one of the things I've always liked about Lowthers.

I'm interested in your thoughts towards bi-amping too, at least the concept of building the filter circuits into your amps. I've had mixed results with bi-amping and am generally not a fan but the idea of accomplishing this within the amps, maybe passive line-level and incorporating some kind of horn compensation without using a SS crossover is very appealing to me (if that's what you are considering).
 
Billfort said:
Yup, gotta agree with that, even with all those sub-par Altec drivers in place. :)

So far it seems we have similar tastes in speakers Bauh, I'm looking forward to reading where you go with the 605s; I'm not sure how they stack-up to the 604-8G that I use but I suspect they are similar. The thing I like about the co-ax Altecs is that they retain much of the the Altec tone and dynamics while bringing that killer point-source imaging to the plate - one of the things I've always liked about Lowthers.

I'm interested in your thoughts towards bi-amping too, at least the concept of building the filter circuits into your amps. I've had mixed results with bi-amping and am generally not a fan but the idea of accomplishing this within the amps, maybe passive line-level and incorporating some kind of horn compensation without using a SS crossover is very appealing to me (if that's what you are considering).
Click to expand...

I'm taking the 605As apart as we speak to make new passive crossovers. probably be done in an hour. So far I've used the crossover 'built in' the amp only for highpass so a sub can be used without an external xovr to teh mains map. I've never tried building compensation into one. I'd probably build a separate line level active EQ if that was required. There was an interesting article from Nelson Pass in Audio Express about using current source amps & passive EQ on Lowthers.

I had DX3 Lowthers in Fidelio cabs for about a year. I liked a lot of things about them but the bass was never in balance. Nice speakers, and I know several people around here who still use them, but they're not for me.

Gonna work on these 605s...
 
It was the imaging and SET synergy I liked about Lowthers - lack of dynamics and no real bass is why I never owned Lowthers and ended up with the Altecs.

Are you building horn compensation into your 605 crossover?
 
mhardy6647 said:
They do sound good... that's the point that the "all that matters is what you can measure" camp always seems to miss.
Click to expand...
Poo.

Surely, you don't think I'm gonna sit still for THAT coming from a closet measurer in denial. ;)

1) No measurer with an ounce of common sense believes all that matters is what they can measure. Measurers also listen, and for the most part, listen more, and with greater precision, than listeners do.

Read the first few slides of this AES presentation, particularly P.6, "Revealed Preference: Euphonic or Transparent:"

http://hypex.nl/docs/Bruno Masterclass/slides.htm

The same issues we discussed in the "Accuracy" thread.

Read the whole thing if you want to get a feel for what actually goes on with measurers. There's a familiar MTM "Test Mule" later on in the presentation, with some revealing FACTS about off-axis vs. on-axis phase anomalies inherent in the MTM configuration.

Bottom line: Making speakers sound good via measurements is the life's work of thousands of dedicated individuals the world over, and dismissive statements such as that above are, quite frankly, insulting. Spend $75 for an AES membership and read up.

2) I try not to talk much about how things sound here, as it kicks me over into the realm of the subjective. However, I can say, unequivocally, and I'm certain many would agree, that Vals do NOT sound all that good in comparison to speakers which sound better, and the entire purpose of my own endeavors with respect to Valencias is to find ways to improve them, i.e., to have them sound better themselves, and measurements point the way.

There are significant issues with Valancias, some of these common to Altecs in general, but again, none of those, or anyone's efforts to improve them, should in any way diminish the pleasure of the many enthusiasts who enjoy them for what they are.... :yes:
 
Redboy said:
Awaiting your findings... those coax Altecs have piqued my interest. :scratch2:
Click to expand...

I just slung together one crossover. A copy of the N1600 using an aircore inductor, film caps & good resistors. Point to point wired on a piece of plexiglass with the components ziptied to nylon mounting pads. Took about 20 minutes. I have one 605 running in Mono now. I'll do the other one later this evening. I have to run out to fix a crossover for a guy i sold my K-horns to. The highs are killing him (I warned him) and he wants the tweets padded down. It's a bit of a drive, but he always has a good bottle of wine open.
 
Bauhausler said:
I'll wait for Zilch's multiamp developments on the crossovers before I change anything on the Valencias.
Click to expand...
Preliminary results came in last night:

"Holy crap! The Vals have some balls!!!"

We're still working out crossover compatability issues.

[I just click buttons here.... :yes: ]
 
Bauhausler said:
Okay, the Cornwalls officially got the gong this morning. Too forward and aggressive in the mids. Too bright even with the tweeter tapped down.
Click to expand...

If I still lived in Ann Arbor near my folks, I'd be trying to convince you to sell me your Cornies.
 
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