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VFET revisited

dlake84

New Member
Hi All

I think there have been a few discussions on VFET already in this forum, but my question today about VFET is, that it sounded like only company who produced VFET amps were SONY. But could there be any other compnay who produced VFET amps?

I don't know much about it, but when I recently opened cover of my LUXMAN SQ707, I saw some output trasistors looked like VFET, but could not be sure. This little SQ707 sounds sweet and smooth, and it is a keeper.

cheers
Dan
 
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The VFET's were unique enough and required somewhat unconventional circuitry to drive them, so it would seem to merit a mention on the front panel...

What are the markings on the output devices??
 
Will get the photos posted soon

I cannot remember what it said now. It was a few days ago, when I opened it, and got some photos of the nudies. They are still in my digicam, but my digicam is in my car now, and it is almost midnight here in UK. If I went out to car right now, then my wife will wonder what I am up to..:-)

BTW, the photo I attached above is not the actual 707 I have. It is identical looking, but mine has somewhat different casing at the top and side. I saw this one from the web site, and put it up just for information, but will replace it with my own photos as soon as I download them from my cam. I hope this is OK.

cheers
Dan
 
If that is a first generation SS amp, it might be possible that it uses Germanium based transistors. They look bigger and different compared to what is in use today.
Ben
 
Vertical FETs were indeed produced by Sony. However, there was also a competing V-FET design from Yamaha. I remember that Bascom H. King of Audio magazine gave it high marks back in 1975 when it came out. He stated the V-FETs sounded sweet rather than harsh like {some early} bipolar devices. His reference amps were modified Marantz 9s.

As ground breaking as V-FETs were, they faded into obscurity by the late 70s. MOSFETs (introduced in the early 80s) pretty much satisfy the needs of quality, tube-like sound electronics nowadays.

Best regards,

crooner
 
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V-FET gear.....

Sony
TA-4650 30wpc Integrated amp
TA-5650 50wpc Integrated amp
TA-8650 80wpc Integrated amp
TAN-5550 50wpc Power amp
TAN-8550 100wpc Power amp

Yamaha
B-1 150wpc Power amp
B-2 100wpc Power amp

I also believe Sony had a very low profile rack mounted V-FET power amp, TAN-86B? but I can't remember the model number.

The V-FET amplifiers were indeed smooth sounding but was extremely expensive for Sony and Yamaha to manufacture. You can occasionally find the TA-4650 on e-bay (going rate ~$200), the TA-5650 (going rate ~$300) rarely and the TA-8650 pops up about once or twice a year (going rate ~$800). The TA-8650 was $1300 in 1976 which is about $4000 today. Not too many people would pay that kind of money for only 80wpc. I do have a minty TA-8650 which is my primary system.
 
An old thread, but I picked up a Yamaha B2 a few weeks ago and after a couple of weeks of A/B listening it has taken place of precedence in my main system and the MX-1000 is out the door. The B2 is, without a doubt, the best sounding amp I've listened to. But, I live in mortal (aural?) fear of losing a V-Fet output device. Apparently the V-FETs for Sony's amps are not as scarce as the ones for the Yamaha amps. May have to do with the total sales levels of each. In any event, if anyone runs across a B2 for sale I would appreciate knowing so I can have some spares. It is truly a fine sounding piece of gear.

Listening through a C-85 preamp, but my new CX-1000 is on its way. Will be another interesting bit of A/B listening. Hope the CX-1000 is as good, as I would like to have the flexibility of the remote.

V-FETs Rule!!
 
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Yamaha had some V-FET preamps also.

If I'm not mistaken the C1 and the C2 series(C2,C2a,C2x) were also V-FET preamps.
 
Re: Yamaha had some V-FET preamps also.

Originally posted by theophile
If I'm not mistaken the C1 and the C2 series(C2,C2a,C2x) were also V-FET preamps.

While the C-1, C-2 & C-2a were the companion preamps for the B1 & B2 amps I can find nothing in the literature attributing V-FET circuitry to them (http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/english/download2.php). The only manual listed states the the C-2a was only an upgrade to the phono stage from the C-2 and only mentions FETs in the phono stage. Nothing about V-FETs.
 
I used to won a Sony TA-5650. As I recall, the Vfets themselves were made by Hitachi, not Sony. I did some research on them and they seem very similar to Mosfets in the way they are biased and driven, so they should be able to be replaced by Mosfets if they blow. The internal construction is different, but the operating parameters are similar to Mosfets.
the main problem with the TA-5650 and I assume the rest of that series, was the diodes for the bias tracking circuit would open up. They can be replaced by 1N4001 or similar diodes. I think you need 2 diodes in series.
 
Check the 'vintageknob' V-FET link above and you will see that they are quite dissimilar to MOSFETs. Specifically, my B2 service manual states that the idling bias must be kept high to prevent failure of the V-FET. A special circuit is built in to the unit to do so. Really not applicable to MOSFETs, at all. The V-FETs for Sony's gear used to be much more readily available. But over the past few years, from what my research has turned up, they are just about as scarce as those for the Yamaha's in today's market. Too bad, as nothing else sounds so good to my ears.
 
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An email dialog with a Zeljko Nastasic (The Master), now in eastern Europe, and a gentleman who taught me a fair amount. He had this to say about Sony VFETs (he was under the mistaken impression that I did not understand the difference between a depletion-mode device and an enhancement mode device, but good reading anyway).
The VMOS and the VFET are similar in structure - hence both have the V, for the V-groove process (anizotropic etching - they use a special etchant and wafers cut at a specific angle to make the groves). The BIG difference, and you can see it in the picture (I am attaching a cross-section of the VFET to this message) is that the VFET is a junction FET, there is no oxide insulation between the source-drain structure and the gate, and the part between the source and the drain is all one and the same. The principle of operation of these two devices is quite different. A JFET is a 'normally closed switch' - it is impossible to gat more current to flow through it than at Vgs=0. The current flows through a solid piece of doped semiconductor - think of it as a thin stick. The'gate' is a narrow region on the stick with a ring of oposite doped semiconductor - essentially a sort of circular diode. The diode is NEVER biassed forward, this is not what it's for. But when it's reverse biassed, the reverse biassing causes the extra holes and electrons in the respective semiconductor to partially recombine, forming a piece of inert semiconductor - essentially an insulator. The larger the biassing in reverse, the more this effect extends into both pieces. The important part is how it extends into the 'stick' - in effect, the cross-section of the 'stick' reduces and it's resistance increases. Ultimately, at high reverse bias, a 'pinch-off' effect exists (assuming the 'stick' is thin enough for that to happen before breakdown), where the part going through the ring is completely inert and no current flows at all. The principle is very similar to that of a triode vacuum tube. The device is 'normally on'. In a VFET, the V grooves are placed very close to each other, forming very tall and thin spikes. These are used as the 'sticks', with deposited material in the grooves being the 'ring' - just think of the same stick and ring analogy, then put the thing into a press untill it becomes flattened wide, but very thin. Now stack many one on top of the other ans connect in parallel (for better current handling) and hold them so that the current flows vertically - and you have a VFET.

VMOS like all MOS works very differently - two regions of doped semicondictor are at ends of a structure - immagine two shorter sticks doped one way 'glued' end to end by a thin layer of semiconductor of the oposite doping. This is an equivalent of oposed diodes, and will never conduct on it's own. The 'glue' is then oxydised on the outside, which forms a surface boundary layer. The oxide is covered by a conductive ring on the outside, forming a sort of capacitor if you will. The charge in that capacitor 'pulls' oposite carriers to the boundary layer as it is increased, forming a thin layer of effective oposite doping in the 'glue', thus connecting the two 'sticks' electrically. The higher the voltage on the conductive ring, the larger the region under the boundary level, capable of conducting. The trick here, to current handling, is obviously to keep the 'length' of the boundary layer as short as possible, for a given breakdown voltage between the two end sticks (S and D) when we do not want it to conduct. The device is 'normally off' - oposite of the VFET. Again, think of flattening this structure, connecting many in parallel and turning on end so the 'sticks' are vertical, and you get a VMOS - the same V-groove process is used for thi, because the doped regions are formend by diffusion, which alowes the manufacturer to VERY tightly control the depth, so as they diffuse each layer (stick 1, 'glue', stick 2), they can make the 'glue' (=channel) very thin, i.e. short. This has other positive repercussions which I won't go into right now, and some negative.

In both cases, as manufacturers learned to control the length/width of features on the surface better, rather than only depth, the V-groove process was abandoned, because it is very expensive and not very usable for anything else.
He also claimed that Sony themselves made the devices. Certainly possible, as Sony owned several semiconductor fab's back then, and likely still does.
 
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Whoa....that's pretty much the whole VFET technical story. Thanks.

Sony even owned several fabs in the U.S., once upon a time (San Antonio, TX, to name two that they bought from AMD in the late 80's- both have gone the way of the dodo and VFETs, unfortunately). I would guess that Sony only owns one or two smaller fabs in Japan where they do product development and make lower volume, very high value-added parts, if, indeed, they own any fabs on their own. Sony probably owns some part of one or more mega-fabs that are mostly located in Asia.

Having recently (3 years) retired from the semiconductor manufacturing industry I am amazed at the level of productivity, yield and learning curve of new product production. I was in the industry when 20% yield on the 286 was good. Moore's law has gone from the sublime to the rediculous. Good for the consumer in most cases. Bad for the trained workers (at all levels) in the U.S. as the level of education required gets lower and lower through the use of computer aided design and control and robotics. At absolutely every facet of the industry. A 12" wafer is absolutely huge (I started on 3"). Same effort in, 2.25 times as many chips out as on an 8" wafer. That means half as many fabs/people/etc., needed to make the same product. Have I gone astray on this thread?
 
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Not all VFETS are extinct- I believe that Spectral still uses them in their reference series of amps.

I have had the occassion to listen to some Spectral reference amps (driving Avalon speaks) and was quite impressed.

Of course, many things impress me...
 
Too good to be true, unfortunately. Spectral's website only talks about MOSFETs and bipolar transistors.
 
From the Spectral site:

UNPARALLELED RESOLUTION, UNPRECEDENTED POWER


The very high-speed launch and enormous current reserves of the DMA-360 are made possible with the use of Spectral's proprietary "Focused Array" construction. This breakthrough topology aligns high-current vertical fet output devices for rapid, pistonic signal launch. The output section is comprised of eight individual V-FET amplifier modules paralleled to achieve a minimum 300 watt RMS output with 90 amp capability, and full rated power is delivered with absolute load stability at an unprecedented 1 MHz. Output current is approximately double that of any previous high-speed amplifier design. The "Focused Array" output section design of the DMA-360 makes possible the practical use of ultra-fast vertical fet devices for the first time in a high powered audio application. Each device, having vacuum tube like operating character, is energized from its own dedicated high energy storage capacitor, rectifier, and individually powered from an isolated ultra-low coupled transformer winding. Individual teflon bias trimmers calibrate each V-FET output device separately for maximum linearity and precise alignment. Groups of these individually powered output sections utilize field folded RF type construction and electronic shielding to banish noise and eliminate low level propagation of stray interference. The resulting "Focused Array" of eight individually powered output sections performs as one with virtually no cross-coupling or energy storage artifacts reflecting between output devices. During extreme program dynamics, this arrangement can launch an instantaneous high-current drive of over 90 amps to the most sophisticated loudspeakers with unprecedented waveform tracing precision. Gone are performance damaging magnetic and electrical field propagation problems of conventional high-powered amplifier construction. Without stray radiation, critical small signal paths within the DMA-360 can perform with lowest possible distortion and settle to signal extinction in millionths of a second. Hence, the DMA-360 works with high power and great speed yet behaves inert to other system components. Reproduction is extremely articulate and naturally resolving yet has all the powerful unlimited sonic character of the most brutal high power amplifier designs.
 
I wonder who manufactures the V-FETs for them. Their talk about "modules" reminds me of Audio Research foray into solid state, when they would encase the transistors in a plastic epoxy sealed box, called "Analog Module". Obviously they didn't want customers to know they were just "off the shelf" name brand transistors.
 
You almost got me too excited for words. Was going to order a dozen to rebuild my amp with Can always reset the voltages. But, alas, you had to keep reading. Here is the rest of the info on the DMA-360 from Spectral's website.

OUTPUT STAGE
The output stage consists of eight individually powered VMOS-FET output amplifiers. This precision amplifier array features individual push-pull drivers, high-speed power supplies and individual biasing to function as a single ultra-fast, high current output section. The result of these techniques is unprecedented fast settling and remarkable intertransient silence.

VMOS is not VFET as in VerticalFET. Refer back to EchoWars post of the technology of these devices to read about their differences.

Thanks.
 
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