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Stylus Debate. Grado/Shure

shoggoth80

shoggoth80

Active Member
Hey all.
I have a Grado ZF3 cartridge, works rather nice. The original stylus is a little bent (but it still plays funny enough, and sounds good). I contacted Grado about replacement options, and was told that all their current styli will fit this cart body. Wording was anything from a Black 1 to a Gold 1 will drop in.
I was recommended the 8MZ stylus, but I am not sure if I should go with that one or not. I have a few cartridges, so I am not in a really big hurry. Every cart sounds a little different, but they all sounds good. Makes it a tough call.

Any advice? Budget is a little tight, as I have recently grabbed styli for a couple other carts that I had picked up as well. I am really digging my Precept PC440 with ATS elliptical, but have a real Precept branded stylus on its way. Is the Grado 8MZ a fineline stylus? Most seem to start in that sort of price range for a fine line. What advantages can a fine line give over an elliptical, or hyper-elliptical? I am also seriously considering a hyperelliptical from Ed Saunders for my Shure VST III. Does one cart/stylus combo have merit over the other? I know that the SAS is supposed to be a killer, but I just don't have that kind of money right now. Should I just hold onto the Grado and Shure, and enjoy my current ones while saving money for seriously upgraded styli, or would it be worth it to buy a couple more middle-road styli for each, and experiment more? Not an easy choice when money is tighter. I could get two styli (one for each) at around the cost of one fineline stylus. Dunno if this is the best route? Does it pay to have this many (5 total) ready to roll carts?
 
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More middle-of-the-road styli will only get you middle-of-the-road sound. In other words, more of what you already have. A "fine line" stylus will provide more detail and cleaner, clearer highs and lows. The Grado 8MZ is a very good stylus but won't bring the Black quite up to the Gold. It will be very close, however, and in my opinion, worth the cost.
 
Neosonic said:
The Grado 8MZ is a very good stylus but won't bring the Black quite up to the Gold. It will be very close, however, and in my opinion, worth the cost.
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The 8MZ stylus is better than the stylus on the Gold cart. The Gold cart and the Black cart only differ on the quality of the wire used for the coils and on the fact that the Gold is hand-picked from a batch. But nothing else. The Grado ZF3 shoggoth80 has is a middle-of-the-road model, not entry level like the Black.
 
flavio81 said:
The 8MZ stylus is better than the stylus on the Gold cart. The Gold cart and the Black cart only differ on the quality of the wire used for the coils and on the fact that the Gold is hand-picked from a batch. But nothing else.
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Not entirely true. The diamond in the black is 7x3 elipitical the diamond in the gold is 7x2 eliptical. The cantilever in the black is three piece, the Gold is 4 piece. The Gold cantilever is covered in a damping compound to reduce skin effects.
 
mace said:
Marcmorin,
Do you know the spec's on the 8MZ?
TIA
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I have the spec sheet on the complete cartridge. The diamond profile from Grado is listed as "twin-tip". Exact tracing dimentions I do not know, nor published. Under scope it is hyperbolic in shape.

8MZ 3.5mv @ 3.54CMV
Controlled frequency response 10-50,000hz
Channel seperation -average >25db 10-30,000hz
 
marcmorin said:
Not entirely true. The diamond in the black is 7x3 elipitical the diamond in the gold is 7x2 eliptical. The cantilever in the black is three piece, the Gold is 4 piece. The Gold cantilever is covered in a damping compound to reduce skin effects.
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Dear marcmorin, i was talking about the difference between the Grado cartridge bodies, not the styli assemblies. The bodies only differ in coil materials and in the fact that the Gold is hand selected over a batch. A Grado Green would be the same as a Grado Gold except for the coil copper material.
 
flavio81 said:
Thanks marc, this confirms it's a line contact tip then. Far better than the bushed elliptical on the Grado Prestige line (black green blue red silver gold).
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No, it's not a line contact. A line contact is V shaped like the groove. Hyperbolic is more ellipsoid shaped when viewed from the front, and its "possible" tracing points are more in line to Shibita.
 
marcmorin said:
No, it's not a line contact. A line contact is V shaped like the groove. Hyperbolic is more ellipsoid shaped when viewed from the front, and its "possible" tracing points are more in line to Shibita.
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It's just a matter of nomenclature. "Line contact" is generally used for any stylus that is not conical nor elliptical but has an enhanced contact area.

Shibata, Quadrahedron, Stereohedron, Hyperbolic, Pramanik, all fall within the "parabolic" category if we consider the contact curve.

When you mention shapes that look like a "V", then you're talking about the MicroRidge/MicroLine/SAS and probably the Fritz Gyger "S". Those are different than the above.
 
Would the Gold1 stylus be a noted improvement over the 8MZ stylus? There is a $10 difference between them. Whom should I buy from? Needledotor, Lpgear or Lptunes?
 
shoggoth80 said:
Would the Gold1 stylus be a noted improvement over the 8MZ stylus? There is a $10 difference between them. Whom should I buy from? Needledotor, Lpgear or Lptunes?
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so far, everybody who has changed their stylus to the 8MZ has been happy with the move.
 
flavio81 said:
It's just a matter of nomenclature. "Line contact" is generally used for any stylus that is not conical nor elliptical but has an enhanced contact area.

Shibata, Quadrahedron, Stereohedron, Hyperbolic, Pramanik, all fall within the "parabolic" category if we consider the contact curve.

When you mention shapes that look like a "V", then you're talking about the MicroRidge/MicroLine/SAS and probably the Fritz Gyger "S". Those are different than the above.
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That's correct. But I'm not convinced that the "parabolic" shapes actually makes more contact. I know they're advertized that way. I think more to the point is "possible" contact area before the major radius becomes too great to stay in the groove.

The major radius will change with cantilever deflection especially in the FG or true line contact. How much would depend upon how "skewed" the cantilever may get during various bending modes. It's a pipe, it has to have bending modes.

If one were to actually make a true spherical diamond (not conical called a spherical) regardless of cantilever twist the major radius would remain constant.
 
Once again, I have misinterpreted a post and given inaccurate advice. :no: On the bright side, I have been corrected and enlightened. Great information, guys. Thanks. :thmbsp:
 
Hi Marc,

while on the topic of stylus shapes - are all the upper end Grado's hyperbolic? - MCZ?, and the fixed stylus versions?

You just provided more information than I have been able to find out about their needles over the last 2 years!

thanks

David
 
dlaloum said:
Hi Marc,

while on the topic of stylus shapes - are all the upper end Grado's hyperbolic? - MCZ?, and the fixed stylus versions?

You just provided more information than I have been able to find out about their needles over the last 2 years!

thanks

David
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Hi David, I can send you some of the upper end ones on damaged cantilevers for your viewing.

Most of the downloads of grado and various styli shapes and sizes on VE were my paperwork that DaveyW had JaS download. The older styli had a radius of .006 x .003 for the "midling" carts. Joe Grado never stated exactly what the shapes were other than his own name for them. Twin-tip, true ellipsoid, Grado special design. I guess you don't have to pay royalties if you change the name.
 
That would be fantastic.... I could then run them up under the microscope and post a couple of pics.... PM sent
 
dlaloum said:
That would be fantastic.... I could then run them up under the microscope and post a couple of pics.... PM sent
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Dave, marcmorin, please go for it! We need that info. Many many of us want to know!

"Twin tip", "true ellipsoid"... Come on Joe Grado, tell us the truth!
 
marcmorin said:
That's correct. But I'm not convinced that the "parabolic" shapes actually makes more contact.
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I understand the controversy. And i almost agree, because perhaps the groove deforms (in the conical) 'till the contact area is the same (than in a Shibata profile, for example). But on one the pressure exertor is a point, on the other, an arc. What i want to say is that, the contact area perhaps is the same, but the deformation that the groove has to suffer, may be much less.

So if we're still in the elastic region of the record compound, perhaps the wear is identical, but i would expect that, for example, the channel separation was way better on the Shibata, at least for the highest frequencies.

Which is what Mr. Shibata claimed.
 
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