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A TT for my Tastes

Prefix

Prefix

Active Member
I am new to the forum but have spent hours reading around and trying to soak in all the information but I feel like I need to break the ice and ask a question.

I am interested in Thorens, specifically the TD 160. I like the 160s looks more than anything other TT...I mean it is wonderful + I like knowing that I can upgrade and mod it as time progresses. I have $500 tops budget that I have been building over the past year. I want this money to help me reach "audio nirvana"...which won't be hard because my ears aren't trained to pick out fine imperfections...really I just want a good TT that is beautiful and helps me enjoy my music more than ever.

Here's the question I have...Will the Thorens TD-160 be bad for playing rock? I have gathered that the 160 has a very warm sound that is best for classical and acoustic but what does that really mean? Does it mean that I shouldn't use a 160 to listen to Grateful Dead Europe 72' on it? If I play any Zeppelin on it I will be disappointed?

I also understand that the cartridge used can affect the responsive nature of the TT, if so could a good cartridge offset the 160s nature and make a better rock TT?

I hope this isn't a terribly dumb question, I just can't quite get my finger on what people mean when they describe the 160 as a warm TT meant for classical.

Any and all advice would be great.

Thanks in advance!
 
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Hi Prefix -- glad you asked and having listened to more turntables now than I can count (including several TD-160s), I'm happy to offer an opinion.

A lot of the "turntable (x) is meant for listening to (y) music" rhetoric is socio-cultural and rooted in history. It's something like this:

Belt-drive suspended tables are for the discriminating audiophile listener, the kind who handles his records with utmost delicacy and sits in meditative repose as he dissects Mozart string trios or Liona Boyd records. If he's feeling particularly funky, he'll put on Kind of Blue and if he wants to rock out, some Wagner.

Whereas the rock dudes want something like a good Technics direct drive, the kind of turntable that won't bounce if you crank up Live at Leeds or Pleased to Meet Me and start windmilling around the room. They need a sturdy cart that will play through the pizza grease in the grooves. Their idea of mellow is Workingman's Dead.

Okay, so those are definitely stereotypes. But back in the day that these tables were in heavy use, those stereotypes more or less fit.

To get down to the sonic nitty-gritty, a well-tuned TD-160 will give you more air and separation than your typical mid-fi Japanese direct drive (or mid-fi Japanese non-suspended belt drive, for that matter). That refinement is almost a necessity for classical, jazz, or acoustic music.

If you play rock on the same TD-160, it'll sound, well, great. There's nothing the matter with milking all of high-res detail that you can out of the grooves when you're listening to rock. Some records (the well-recorded ones that are mastered with care) will sound phenomenal.

On the other hand, some people like their rock to smack them upside the head. More slam and punch, and less of that air and separation. And louder! Is Black Sabbath or AC/DC going to sound better on a cheap Technics compared to a Thorens? That may depend on the volume at which you play it. On a physical level, the signal coming from that Thorens will react more negatively to the vibrations in the room, unless you do some serious isolation.

And to answer your second question about cartridges: yes, you can choose a cart for your Thorens based on the kind of music you like to listen to. For rock, I'd highly recommend a Stanton 681/Pickering XV-15. You'd have to buy used and hunt for good NOS or aftermarket styli, but I can tell you from experience that this combo sounds great for the kind of music you're talking about. Hope all of that helps!
 
If he has to have a Thorens, he can mount it on the wall. Not many people walk on walls. That would keep the suspension of the tt from being upset by footfalls on sensitive floors.

I'm not getting into the discussion of dd for rock and bd for classical, jazz and such. I listen to many kinds of music and have both a 160 and a Japanese direct drive. I do not select the TT based on music type.
 
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Yep, hang it on something very solid and it won't do stupid things. Spin all the Who or Zeppelin you want, it'll be fine. I run mine with a Stanton 681EE that I got NOS, and it does make a fine combo. Mind you this is a TD-160 mark nothing. The Mark II and other variants have a lower mass arm that might pair up to a different cartridge better. The original TP-16 MK1 arm is almost double the mass of the later arms.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. I am so excited to be closing in on a real life tangible TT and not just a figment of my imagination.

My house is old enough and small enough that with several people the structure comes alive. I will definitely have to do some serious isolation, but I will only be here through May so it is no reason to not buy a sensitive TT.


I have found a moded 165 with a Rega RB 205 arm with a Cardas cable. It has a mahogany veneered plinth, internal ground, IEC power, and new RCA jack. The guy selling it is adding a Grado Gold for an extra $100.

Should I consider this? or, just keep looking for a 160. I understand the negative changes made in the 165 vs the 160 but for $550 ($450 w/o the Grado Cart) could this moded 165 make a decent deal?

I have attached a picture of the moded 165 found on CraigsList.

DSC_4534.jpg


And for the back side...

DSC_4539.jpg


Thanks again!
 
Thats a nice looking TT. Looks to me he has a lot of mods done to it allready. The Rega 250 is a nice TA. With the Grado gold I'm sure it sounds nice. IMO I don't think its worth 550. I would offer him 400 for the TT and the Grado.
 
Thanks bob06. It sounds like he is firm on his asking price but things might change after the holidays:scratch2:

I don't think I could/would pay the asking price...truth is, the hunt I am on is fun and I have been discovering and learning throughout the whole process and would hate to settle on something and then find a better deal.
 
Prefix said:
Thanks bob06. It sounds like he is firm on his asking price but things might change after the holidays:scratch2:

I don't think I could/would pay the asking price...truth is, the hunt I am on is fun and I have been discovering and learning throughout the whole process and would hate to settle on something and then find a better deal.
Click to expand...

If ya get the one pictured..........first thing you need to do is change the counter weight system on that rega to the low slug counterweight type. The Grado will thank you.
 
Great looking table but.....

While the price isnt bad for whats on it,the hunt is a lot of fun. Thorens I have owned sound really good. Got a older TD 160 for $100 a few years ago. Put a low end AudioTechnica cart on it. It sounded great. This table did not have problems boucing around. Even in an old apartment. Had a new one in 1973 and it bouced all over the place. Did not have a dust cover but other wise it was great. Dont remember why I let it go:scratch2:

Shop around you never know whats out there. Awhile back I ran into a lady breaking up with her partner.They had 800 Lps:D free. Wanted money for the turntable. Did not know it was a Thorens TD 160 MKII. Complete with box and stylus. Wow! Had a blank check in my shirt pocket. Then disaster struck. Mice had ate through wires on Thoens armwand. Said "oh man" told her about the broken wires. "Take it." Pried the headshell off the arm tube. Resoldered 1/3 inch of wire to it. Swore it would hum and it was quiet. Found a complete arm on Ebay. Bid on it,did not need it and won it. For $90 got a second arm. Replaced the belt.

Good luck in your search. Be patient. All three Duals, 1229,1009 and 1015 I got for under $100.
 
Prefix said:
Should I consider this? or, just keep looking for a 160. I understand the negative changes made in the 165 vs the 160 but for $550 ($450 w/o the Grado Cart) could this moded 165 make a decent deal?
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The negatives aren't that bad at all. The biggest negative is the weaker stock plinth which the deck you are posting about is already replaced. After that is the motor. I could be wrong but I don't think it is quite as good as the 160. The inner sub-platter is not that big a deal at all. What is more important than the resin vs. the metal is the size of the axel, 10mm vs. 7mm. Some 165s were 10, like my old one, and some were 7.

It looks like a great table. No more beat up stock interconnects and power cord, so check there. As for isolation, from my experience between my old 165 (which was a great table), and my new 160, an upgraded plinth makes a huge difference. After that there are some very simple mods you can do to help that will cost you very little. Isolation feet are very helpful too as well as an upgraded platter mat, I use Herbie's isolation tenderfeet and used to use his platter mat before going to an all acrylic outer platter which rocks. I do not have a wall shelf and do not have a problem unless I am banging my shelf/table with force.
 
stereofisher: man i dig your luck...I live in a fairly rural area and thrift stores / estate and yard sales are few and far between but you can definitely find great deals compared to cities...where people are privy to google.

marcmorin: thanks for the heads up. You think that reflects the sellers judgement? maybe the guy is an air head?

I listen to many kinds of music and have both a 160 and a Japanese direct drive. I do not select the TT based on music type.
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I am sure I am "thinking too hard" about all of this. After all I may learn that I don't like the sound of a 160. I suppose I truly am relying 100% on other peoples opinions. :blah: Here I am getting all introverted.

Well thanks again guys! This whole process has been somewhat consuming, I make at least 4 TT references a day now. Sometimes I tell random people that I speak to twice a year that I am looking at buying a vintage TT. I have decided that "Kind of Blue" will be my first record played haha. Ohh the anticipation. I will keep searching and looking to this community for help.

Yall are the bomb.
 
Sanc said:
What is more important than the resin vs. the metal is the size of the axel, 10mm vs. 7mm. Some 165s were 10, like my old one, and some were 7.

Isolation feet are very helpful too as well as an upgraded platter mat, I use Herbie's isolation tenderfeet and used to use his platter mat before going to an all acrylic outer platter which rocks. I do not have a wall shelf and do not have a problem unless I am banging my shelf/table with force.
Click to expand...


Thanks Sanc!

About the size of the axel. I have read about it, just not well, and can't really understand the issue. Is it a smaller length or diameter? Both could affect torque. Is torque even the issue with the difference or is it the decrease in mass? Or is it area affecting surface contact and creating a difference in rumble? Some people have sworn that it is the spawn of Satan while others deny any difference.

The 165 I referenced has spikes which I would change out. The guy used cork on the bottom of the platter. I asked him if the mods were done out of fun or necessity (trying to figure out if he was ever happy with the sound quality of the 165). He said that the plinth (with dampening) and arm (with rewiring) really increased SQ but the other stuff was just for fun.



I think my next question gets at something larger but I have to ask.

Do I even want an already moded TT. Isn't half the fun developing the sound of your own TT. Something tells me that I shouldn't buy a "finished" TT. A stock TT that has room for development and growth seems like part of this vinyl experience. Or would it be smart to start off with a "finished" TT and further down the road buy another and fix that up after having some real vinyl experience?

I feel like I'm hitchhiking down the Vinyl Highway.
 
The 10mm vs 7mm refers to the diameter of the spindle bearing; though the larger is preferred, it would be difficult to hear the difference, imo and ime. I was a 165 admirer and user for years until recently, when health issues made TT use too much trouble for me. I bought my first 165 new in '72 (Thorens manufactured them from '72-'76), and two others decades later. I no longer even own a TT or records, but if I did it would be a pretty much stock TD-165 - I really liked the stock TP-11 tonearm, though few respect it as much as I. However, a TD-160 is the better choice, but not by as much as many other folks believe, imo. The 165 you found with the Rega arm seems like a reasonable deal to me; if it were mine, I certainly would value it similarly. You can't go wrong with either model, and they are easy to repair or upgrade.
 
musichal said:
The 10mm vs 7mm refers to the diameter of the spindle bearing; though the larger is preferred, it would be difficult to hear the difference, imo and ime. I was a 165 admirer and user for years until recently, when health issues made TT use too much trouble for me. I bought my first 165 new in '72 (Thorens manufactured them from '72-'76), and two others decades later. I no longer even own a TT or records, but if I did it would be a pretty much stock TD-165 - I really liked the stock TP-11 tonearm, though few respect it as much as I. However, a TD-160 is the better choice, but not by as much as many other folks believe, imo. The 165 you found with the Rega arm seems like a reasonable deal to me; if it were mine, I certainly would value it similarly. You can't go wrong with either model, and they are easy to repair or upgrade.
Click to expand...

:thmbsp:
 
Prefix said:
I am new to the forum but have spent hours reading around and trying to soak in all the information but I feel like I need to break the ice and ask a question.

I am interested in Thorens, specifically the TD 160. I like the 160s looks more than anything other TT...I mean it is wonderful + I like knowing that I can upgrade and mod it as time progresses. I have $500 tops budget that I have been building over the past year. I want this money to help me reach "audio nirvana"...which won't be hard because my ears aren't trained to pick out fine imperfections...really I just want a good TT that is beautiful and helps me enjoy my music more than ever.

Here's the question I have...Will the Thorens TD-160 be bad for playing rock? I have gathered that the 160 has a very warm sound that is best for classical and acoustic but what does that really mean? Does it mean that I shouldn't use a 160 to listen to Grateful Dead Europe 72' on it? If I play any Zeppelin on it I will be disappointed?

I also understand that the cartridge used can affect the responsive nature of the TT, if so could a good cartridge offset the 160s nature and make a better rock TT?

I hope this isn't a terribly dumb question, I just can't quite get my finger on what people mean when they describe the 160 as a warm TT meant for classical.

Any and all advice would be great.

Thanks in advance!
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I don't subscibe to 'tables for music' thing. There are too many other factors in the chain, to almost make the argument for choice of table mute. Aligned and balanced through an eliptical/ML/FL/SA stylus from a clean, well pressed source through a matched system; any decent isolatable table should sound about the same.

Just beware. New Thorens owners take a long time till they are 100% confident in their set up berfore they can actually enjoy the music without a critical ear. They are quite the opposite to a plug and play kind of table.

The 165/250 looks beautiful in it's new plinth. With a dustcover included in similar condition, I'd say it's good value for someone in your $500 budget. Compared to the new market, $500 spent here would be considered wise.

Ask if it has a genuine Thorens marked belt, and request a full list of the mods done. All looks good but the suspension looks out in relation to the TA mounting plate. Also the silver screws used at the external RCA mod look a bit out of place. The table has been heavily modded. The exterior looks great but let's have a look at the internals.

A dustcover will mean $100 to you so make sure you have an image if included. If not you have a $100 bargaining chip.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
I like better Thorens models. The ultimate goal for a turntable is to be an accurate, uncolored, neutral support for a tonearm and to spin accurately on speed and to not have uncontrolled resonances. I like the TD-160 and used to own one. Mine did need a little bit of repair work, minor things. Wish I had had a wall shelf, but not doable due to grandmother. Mine once sorted out was reliable and never had speed issues. And it was a joy to own and operate.
 
Prefix said:
marcmorin: thanks for the heads up. You think that reflects the sellers judgement? maybe the guy is an air head?
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The low slung counter weight aftermarket option is one of the tweeks to a Rega arm that makes any cart work better on the arm. I mentioned it due more to the Grado cart, if something isn't working in the arm at the top of its game, the Grado will let you know quicker than any other cart. 99% of the time, the cart gets blamed.
 
marcmorin said:
The low slung counter weight aftermarket option is one of the tweeks to a Rega arm that makes any cart work better on the arm. I mentioned it due more to the Grado cart, if something isn't working in the arm at the top of its game, the Grado will let you know quicker than any other cart. 99% of the time, the cart gets blamed.
Click to expand...

The Grado is a somewhat more 'interactive' cart than most with a given arm/TT combo, one of my better TTs oddly doesn't take to them at all tho' fine with other carts.
 
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At this point in that 165, there are three things that still make it a 165.

1. The resin sub-platter (assuming it is a 10mm diamter axle like the 160) which is not a big deal.
2. The top chassis having a different finish that is not quite as resistant to scratches, not a sound issue, only cosmetic.
3. The motor, if it is running properly than it is fine.

The plinth is the biggest factor here IMHO. There are people who sell real nice plinths for $300 alone, add the Rega arm in, say $250, you have $550. It could be a bit cheaper, but I would not say it is a terrible deal.

BTW, there are endless things you can do to these tables, so if you get an itch to do more modding, you are not limited.
 
Sanc said:
The plinth is the biggest factor here IMHO. There are people who sell real nice plinths for $300 alone, add the Rega arm in, say $250, you have $550. It could be a bit cheaper, but I would not say it is a terrible deal.
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An AK subscriber has pointed me to a stock 160 that he has tuned up.

I need to put money down on this 160 if I want it, because I can't pick it up until next Wednesday. So..

Should I (would you) go for the moded 165 for $550

or

Go for the stock 160 ( "Mk1" ) for $300


From what I gather, It has the TP 16 and runs well.
 
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