Philosophical Question: What is Modern Day Hi-fi

Philosophical Question: What is Modern Day Hi-fi??

I am curious to see what others think.

Perhaps the best way to proceed is to define what it is, and what it is not. At the highest level, I believe it is a question of technology, engineering and perhaps materials. Approximately one hundred years ago there was nothing available in electronic sound.

What do you think Modern Day Hi-Fi is or is not......?

Update
From the responses, I can see that I should have been more focused.

My goal in this thread isn't to redefine what is or is not posted in Modern Day, it is intended to foster a discussion on technology and were it is going pertaining to our Hobby.

For example in AV we have 4K coming down the road, will it have audio implications? Will soundtracks move beyond 24x96 or for that matter move to 24x96 for a lot of the movies. Does anyone have their hands on a 4k player, any differences in audio, or picture for that matter, still HDMI or are they moving to something different aka USB2---USB3....

Any better data compression algorithms in the works, is Flac on the way out.....Whats the best PC based software for media playback.....

Conversely, discussing who and when the best MOSFET or EL34 Amps were built will probably be fruitless and of little interest.

Although I have plenty of Vintage gear, I also have plenty of what I consider Modern Day gear.

Does anyone have any leading edge audio tech they are free to talk about?

What comes after Tubes and Transistors?

My list:

What it is not:

Tube amplification with existing tube technologies, perhaps there is a new kind of tube tech.

Amplification using transistors, this has been around for at least 60 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplifier

Records and turn tables

Dynamic speaker designs: with the exceptions of Transparent ionic conduction speakers 2013 and Thermoacoustic speakers 2008.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker

Headphones of all kinds


Tape based music cassettes and reel to reel

Radio Am and FM


What is new tech audio:

Class T amplification, specialized Class D using new fabrication processes and technologies?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_T_amplifier

Laser or Optical Turn tables
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_turntable

Post CD Optical Disks aka DVD and BluRay. BluRay DTS Maser Audio with perhaps the highest quality reproduction of sine waves with a noise floor approaching zero if properly mastered. Scroll down to the tables, audio...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

Internet based music servers and radio stations. Sound quality varies, huge selection.

Voice & Data-audio Compression
Before there was compressed music, there was a need to compress voice on the telephone networks to save copper, so I've linked two articles. PCM and ADPCM are not new technologies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_coding

Data aka music compression lossless and lossy. Mpeg and FLAC come to mind as new compression tech....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_compression#Audio

MultiChannel Audio aka surround sound 5.1 or greater

Dacs and Codecs, even though these technologies have been around for a very long time in Telcos and military applications, it was not until the last 20 years that it was affordable for home audio.

Portable MP3 music players

Wireless connection of components such as Bluetooth or wireless Ethernet Wifi

Layer 3 Wired connection of components at more than level one like RCA or coax, USB comes to mind as a full featured 3 layer protocol with CRC-ARQ

High Quality Streamed compressed data and video played over a computer or internet enabled BluRay player may be the Pinnacle of Modern-Day...Leave it to the Japanese.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGFro1AIoHQ

If you read the welcome thread, or the main page, AK itself seems to define it as new gear, i.e. things that you can purchase new in stores or online today.

As opposed to vintage, which I don't see a definition for, but from the dictionary:

a period of origin or manufacture

I think it's that simple. There is a grey area...like, where would my speakers fit? They were made not long ago but aren't available brand new anymore. I tend to think of them as modern day. Certainly compared to a pair of Sansui speakers from the 70s.

Your definition is a bit problematic in the context of running a forum since it's much more subjective and complex.

If it doesn't need DeOxit or a recap it's modern day Hi-fi.

whoaru99 said:

If it doesn't need DeOxit or a recap it's modern day Hi-fi.

Click to expand...

Building on your list, my 1978 Dual 604 TT did recently require an oil change and a cartridge, but no caps....

Fusion said:

If you read the welcome thread, or the main page, AK itself seems to define it as new gear, i.e. things that you can purchase new in stores or online today.

As opposed to vintage, which I don't see a definition for, but from the dictionary:

a period of origin or manufacture

I think it's that simple. There is a grey area...like, where would my speakers fit? They were made not long ago but aren't available brand new anymore. I tend to think of them as modern day. Certainly compared to a pair of Sansui speakers from the 70s.

Your definition is a bit problematic in the context of running a forum since it's much more subjective and complex.

Click to expand...

This.

Fusion said:

If you read the welcome thread, or the main page, AK itself seems to define it as new gear, i.e. things that you can purchase new in stores or online today.

As opposed to vintage, which I don't see a definition for, but from the dictionary:

a period of origin or manufacture

I think it's that simple. There is a grey area...like, where would my speakers fit? They were made not long ago but aren't available brand new anymore. I tend to think of them as modern day. Certainly compared to a pair of Sansui speakers from the 70s.

Your definition is a bit problematic in the context of running a forum since it's much more subjective and complex.

Click to expand...

You raise a good point, all of the technologies listed are available today in new manufacture products, with the possible exception of cassette decks and reel to reel.

It may be interesting to view the market and tech from a different perspective than date of manufacture, you never know where a valuable bit of information or insight may come from in an unbounded discussion.

Sometimes newer is better, and occasionally something comes along that completely redefines the market; in computing, PCs would be viewed as a highly disruptive tech that changed everything....

Looking the top 100 items in electronics listed on Amazon, it is undeniable that i-phones etc despite existing shortcomings, have been incredibly disruptive to multiple other product categories. Who would have thought $2 ear buds would have shocked the quality headphone market back to life??

I think "what you can buy new now" (or recently) is a reasonable compromise for forum purposes.

Bubo, if you eliminated tubes and transistors, how would Modern Day amplifiers work?

As for this:

Laser or Optical Turn tables
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_turntable

Click to expand...

Asserting that something will never work is a good way to be wrong, but I will assert that optical playing of records will never work well, because the stylus is actually reading information below the surface of the groove, due to elastic deformation during playback. Ever hear a tiny echo preceding a loud introduction, one revolution too soon? Perhaps real-time mathematical modeling of the deformation would be possible, but that would still leave the surface imperfections.

Pretty much what Fusion wrote. I would consider tube audio, if it is new production, new models as Modern Day Hi-Fi, as well as newly issued designed turntables..
Its Modern Day to me because the technology, R&D seems to be much better than it was 30-40 yrs ago.

I mean you can take the NAD3020 from 1978, iconic piece of gear, legendary. And last year NAD issued the NAD D3020, a modern upgrade to the 1978 issue. Why would you not consider the D3020 as Modern Day Hi-Fi?

I can see discussion points from your post though...

sqlsavior said:

I think "what you can buy new now" (or recently) is a reasonable compromise for forum purposes.

Bubo, if you eliminated tubes and transistors, how would Modern Day amplifiers work?

As for this:

Asserting that something will never work is a good way to be wrong, but I will assert that optical playing of records will never work well, because the stylus is actually reading information below the surface of the groove, due to elastic deformation during playback. Ever hear a tiny echo preceding a loud introduction, one revolution too soon? Perhaps real-time mathematical modeling of the deformation would be possible, but that would still leave the surface imperfections.

Click to expand...

Interesting point on the optical TT. It does appear we will be dragging a diamond over plastic for the foreseeable future..

My goal in this thread isn't to redefine what is or is not posted in Modern Day, it is intended to foster a discussion on technology and were it is going pertaining to our Hobby.

For example in AV we have 4K coming down the road, will it have audio implications? Will soundtracks move beyond 24x96 or for that matter move to 24x96 for a lot of the movies.

Does anyone have any leading edge audio tech they are free to talk about?

What comes after Tubes and Transistors? We'll have to see what the next thing is coming out of Area 51.....Optical amplification?....

Cloud systems.....you will not actually own any physical gear, you will just hear music emanating from thin air.

ohhhh the horror!

Catcher10 said:

Cloud systems.....you will not actually own any physical gear, you will just hear music emanating from thin air.

ohhhh the horror!

Click to expand...

I wonder what the sound quality is like......

"The billboard uses technology manufactured by Holosonic that transmits an "audio spotlight" from a rooftop speaker so that the sound is contained within your cranium."

http://adage.com/article/news/hear-voices-ad/122491/

"Philosophical Question: What is Modern Day Hi-fi??"

I would say there's no such thing as Modern Day Hi-Fi.
Hi-Fi is dead, and it was replaced by High End and various convenience audio solutions.

Fusion said:

If you read the welcome thread, or the main page, AK itself seems to define it as new gear, i.e. things that you can purchase new in stores or online today.

Click to expand...

Maybe I'm confused but I don't see where Bubo is disputing how AK defines this Modern Day Hi-Fi Forum. He seems to be asking for opinions that cover a broad range of topics as they pertain to modern day hi-fi in general. I think his use of capital letters may have been confusing. Anyway, if I'm correct maybe he should offer further clarification. :scratch2:

cubdog

cubdog said:

Maybe I'm confused but I don't see where Bubo is disputing how AK defines this Modern Day Hi-Fi Forum. He seems to be asking for opinions that cover a broad range of topics as they pertain to modern day hi-fi in general. I think his use of capital letters may have been confusing. Anyway, if I'm correct maybe he should offer further clarification. :scratch2:

cubdog

Click to expand...

Dan's answer kind of tied in a couple of threads where the OP has questioned the (or a) definition of Modern Day HiFi. It wasn't an attack, IMO. I thought Dan's answer was considered and well thought out. I know Dan from another forum and he is a considerate member with a lot to contribute, not that I think that you questioned that.

I like the old tech in the modern outfit. My setup is pretty vintage if not ancient in concept. Single-ended triode or push-pull tube amplification & full-range, cap-less 15" drivers in big-ass cabs. But they're all made new & recent, apart from the NOS driver tubes.

Hell, if I can, I want to turn my direct-drive turntable into a good old idler, preferably Shindo 301! That's another old tech in the modern outfit again.

Blu-ray is capable of up to 24/192. Whether there is any content in that format I don't know.

Edit: Quick search seems to indicate there is BD content at that level.

davidro said:

I like the old tech in the modern outfit. My setup is pretty vintage if not ancient in concept. Single-ended triode or push-pull tube amplification & full-range, cap-less 15" drivers in big-ass cabs. But they're all made new & recent, apart from the NOS driver tubes.

Hell, if I can, I want to turn my direct-drive turntable into a good old idler, preferably Shindo 301! That's another old tech in the modern outfit again.

Click to expand...

15in full range drivers 20hz to 20k ??? What are you running, any pics??

Here's the related thread with pics: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=8048084

Full-range as in single driver speakers.

What the manufacturer says about the drivers:

The Audio Nirvana 'Super 15 Cast Frame' ($498/pr) has a frequency response from 22 hz to almost 15,000 hz. You can expect at least 99 db efficiency in any of our cabinets. It handles 50 watts continuous RMS (normal listening level will be about 1/10 watt). Impedance is 8 ohms. Voice coil is 2.0 inches (50 mm). Magnet weight is 4.3 lbs. Total weight is 18 lbs. The cone is made of paper. The surround is accordion style and made of treated cloth. The phase plug is copper anodized, machined solid aluminum. The frame is cast aluminum. A separate tweeter is not necessary. Few people can hear above 14,000 cycles, so the upper limits of this speaker are all most people will ever need. You might be interested to note, for example, that FM radio is limited to 15,000 hz. In one of our larger cabinets, this is one of the best sounding speakers we have for sale.

Click to expand...

Modern day hi fi is the same as old day hi fi, except it might be a little more efficient in performance, heat output and cheaper to manufacture.

The actual designs, based upon long known theories (transistor and tubes) has not really changed for 50 years. Speaker design, since Theile & Small, has not changed, but the speakers (but not all of them) themselves may be a little better due to manufacturing processes.

Class D amps are the currently getting a lot of peoples attention, and I guess this is about the newest thing in hi fi audio.

The biggest implication of 4k video is the required bandwidth to download a movie, so if anything it will ramp up the telcos into faster and higher capacity networks.

For me it`s any component that brings one closer to a live performance, what you would hear in the studio, club or concert hall. Be it tube or transistor there has been slow progress towards this goal and products making this progress are what i consider modern.

In the last five decades speakers have made the least progress and advancements. During the 70`s it was believed that upgrading one`s speakers would make the most improvement in a system (and it was true), today i can find bigger improvements by changing amps, preamps ect. Thus showing the slow but sometimes unnoticed progress that really has be made.

Then on the other hand modern could mean something entirely different for another person, a system that is not the focal point in a room, something that can play for hours without assistance, small in size, wireless, something that the wife gives the ok for ect.

I think the source that delivers the music that we run through our amps will make the biggest changes in the next few years, i just hope it happens for the sake of the music and not convenience as with the CD, which Sony and Philips admitted a few years back.