Have I gone overboard this time?

GordonW

Speakerfixer
Subscriber
I need a reality check. :D

I am one of the administrators in charge of Anime Weekend Atlanta (see here: http://www.awa-con.com/ ). It's our twentieth year (geesh, it HAS been that long!)... so, we're kind of going nuts, in a number of ways, preparing for the event.

My own brand of nuts, is the sound system that I spec'd out, and we've got coming for our Main Events room. Yeah, it's a big room (one of four big exhibit halls at the Cobb Galleria Centre- 120' wide by 300' long by 35' ceiling height), but I may have gone a LITTLE overboard with my recommendation/specification for the sound system. Here's the basics:

Ten (or more) Nexo Alpha S2 double 18" sub cabinets:
http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/4/alpha-s2/

Eight Nexo LS1200 single-18" sub cabinets:
http://www.jpb-audiovisuel.fr/pdf/caissondebassels1200.pdf

Six flown line arrays (three across the front stage, three as delay lines halfway back in the room) each consisting of five Nexo Geo 805S and one Nexo Geo 830 cabinet:
http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/10/s805/
http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/11/s830/

...and eight Nexo PS15 cabinets, for stage monitors and side fills:
http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/27/ps15-r2/

That's a total of twenty-eight 18" woofers, thirty six 8" midbass drivers, and thirty six horn-line assemblies (each with two horn drivers per cabinet, IIRC) (and the company said that if they have additional inventory available back in their warehouse when our event comes around, they may actually bring more subs!). This system should be completely flat down to 30 Hz or lower (probably lower, as we have enough subwoofers to "push the limit" a little in terms of turning down the cutoff frequency of the processors, to allow a little more low bass extension), with truly "room filling" sound.

Mixers will be two of the Yamaha LS9-32 digital mixers (one for main, one for monitors). All processing will be by Nexo's own proprietary crossover/delay/sound shaping networks, to precisely dial-in everything in the hall.

We're actually bringing in CARPET for the entire concrete floor of the exhibit hall- and we've got 15' tall velour pipe-and-drape all the way across in the front and rear of the room, and all the way down one side (the other side is a fabric/padded 'air wall', which really didn't need more damping, ostensibly). Once we get a crowd in that room, it should be damped pretty nicely- making for a quite clear sound...

I am told that the last time the company specified this much sound system for a gig, was in a space nearly four times as big as what we have. That said- the idea is NOT to make it abusively loud- in contrast, I want enough system, that it can be tuned for ABSOLUTE CLARITY and BALANCE, without ANYTHING running out of capacity ANYWHERE. I want it to NEVER have to work hard... even with the most demanding electronic dance music, it needs to be clean and clear. I think this should do that. :D

The lighting, I am told, will be equivalently impressive. I don't know lighting as well, but the sheer number of trusswork sections, lighting effects and PAR cans I see on the order, are almost overwhelming. :D Not to mention two 20 foot video screens, with 20000 lumen (!) video projectors ("artificial sun", anyone?). We have our own custom video switching and processing system, which maintains high-def video over a variety of input formats, while keeping the displays free of glitches and switching transients...

I am really looking forward to this. It's a hell of an expense for us (this years' budgeting has been a real challenge for us, but we've done pretty much everything we set out to do, and paid for it all along the way), but it should be an truly immersive experience, beyond what most other shows of this type have ever tried to put on...

Regards,
Gordon.
 
I don't know if your kidding or serious...


Could you actually be asking US if you have gone overboard? First, if you please, define for us this word "overboard", as I thought that this could only relate to theoretical or fictional applications...
 
That's all you got? ;)

For this year.

I am told (unofficially, of course), that our tech budget for this kind of thing, may close to double next year... :banana: Depends, of course, on how many people come to the show this year...

For comparison- this is actually MORE sound system, than was used for the LL Cool J/ Public Enemy/ Ice Cube/ De La Soul "Kings of the Mic" show at the famous Fox Theater here in Atlanta, last year. Ours will probably go close to a half octave lower, and have much better balance, at the same volume level. And that literally could make the concrete floor vibrate... I know, I was THERE!

Regards,
Gordon.
 
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A single WOPL1000 and a set of Khorns would do the trick pretty well. 1000w should fill that room area easily, in fact, it would be deafening LOL. A WOPL will get you down to 10Hz
 
My dream is to fill the space with Danley tapped horns one day...

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/subwoofers/

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/

Regards,
Gordon.

Wow! They have some nice offerings!

You could always get two of these... that's Joe King next to me, the Father of the WOPL

QYpocus.jpg


That's part of the PA from Woodstock, I can't believe I got to check them out and that they are still around. They are near Boston if anyone wants to look for them though I doubt most people would have the money to purchase them
 
I checkout out those Danley Tapped Horn Subs.

True, they have a high 110 db sensitivity, but they only handle 8,000 Watts continuous, and a paltry 32,000 Watts peak...


YIKES!!! :yikes:
 
Don't forget to get a few fog machines, pretty much needed to bring out the effects of the lighting.
 
I checkout out those Danley Tapped Horn Subs.

True, they have a high 110 db sensitivity, but they only handle 8,000 Watts continuous, and a paltry 32,000 Watts peak...


YIKES!!! :yikes:

Now that's what I'm talking about!!!!!!!!!
 
Haven't been over to the Galleria in quite a few years, but having attended a few trade shows and a Model Railroad Show there, I remember those rooms as being rather "echo-ie". Of course that was a bare room environment with the hard floors.
If the picture of the prospective audience is indicative or the crowd, there will likely be a lot of live (human) sound absorption.
Anyway, all the best with your adventure.

John
 
I think The Who would be at home there!!! Great effort!@ Good luck with the event.
DC
 
I need a reality check. :D

I am one of the administrators in charge of Anime Weekend Atlanta (see here: http://www.awa-con.com/ ). It's our twentieth year (geesh, it HAS been that long!)... so, we're kind of going nuts, in a number of ways, preparing for the event.

My own brand of nuts, is the sound system that I spec'd out, and we've got coming for our Main Events room. Yeah, it's a big room (one of four big exhibit halls at the Cobb Galleria Centre- 120' wide by 300' long by 35' ceiling height), but I may have gone a LITTLE overboard with my recommendation/specification for the sound system. Here's the basics:

Ten (or more) Nexo Alpha S2 double 18" sub cabinets:
http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/4/alpha-s2/

Eight Nexo LS1200 single-18" sub cabinets:
http://www.jpb-audiovisuel.fr/pdf/caissondebassels1200.pdf

Six flown line arrays (three across the front stage, three as delay lines halfway back in the room) each consisting of five Nexo Geo 805S and one Nexo Geo 830 cabinet:
http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/10/s805/
http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/11/s830/

...and eight Nexo PS15 cabinets, for stage monitors and side fills:
http://nexo-sa.com/en/products/27/ps15-r2/

That's a total of twenty-eight 18" woofers, thirty six 8" midbass drivers, and thirty six horn-line assemblies (each with two horn drivers per cabinet, IIRC) (and the company said that if they have additional inventory available back in their warehouse when our event comes around, they may actually bring more subs!). This system should be completely flat down to 30 Hz or lower (probably lower, as we have enough subwoofers to "push the limit" a little in terms of turning down the cutoff frequency of the processors, to allow a little more low bass extension), with truly "room filling" sound.

Mixers will be two of the Yamaha LS9-32 digital mixers (one for main, one for monitors). All processing will be by Nexo's own proprietary crossover/delay/sound shaping networks, to precisely dial-in everything in the hall.

We're actually bringing in CARPET for the entire concrete floor of the exhibit hall- and we've got 15' tall velour pipe-and-drape all the way across in the front and rear of the room, and all the way down one side (the other side is a fabric/padded 'air wall', which really didn't need more damping, ostensibly). Once we get a crowd in that room, it should be damped pretty nicely- making for a quite clear sound...

I am told that the last time the company specified this much sound system for a gig, was in a space nearly four times as big as what we have. That said- the idea is NOT to make it abusively loud- in contrast, I want enough system, that it can be tuned for ABSOLUTE CLARITY and BALANCE, without ANYTHING running out of capacity ANYWHERE. I want it to NEVER have to work hard... even with the most demanding electronic dance music, it needs to be clean and clear. I think this should do that. :D

The lighting, I am told, will be equivalently impressive. I don't know lighting as well, but the sheer number of trusswork sections, lighting effects and PAR cans I see on the order, are almost overwhelming. :D Not to mention two 20 foot video screens, with 20000 lumen (!) video projectors ("artificial sun", anyone?). We have our own custom video switching and processing system, which maintains high-def video over a variety of input formats, while keeping the displays free of glitches and switching transients...

I am really looking forward to this. It's a hell of an expense for us (this years' budgeting has been a real challenge for us, but we've done pretty much everything we set out to do, and paid for it all along the way), but it should be an truly immersive experience, beyond what most other shows of this type have ever tried to put on...

Regards,
Gordon.

Well, the obvious question is what do the EASE simulations say? Clearly, to do an installation of that complexity and scale without modeling it is a recipe for disaster, not for "absolute clarity and balance." If getting great sound was just a matter of over-spec'ing a bunch of high end gear, sound guys would be unnecessary.

The other thing I was wondering is how you plan to mitigate feedback below 100 Hz with split, delayed clusters in a closed, rectangular room?

-k
 
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OT, but I saw Supergirl at the Galleria circa 1985. Hmmmm, Helen Slater. :drool:

I had just moved in with my brother and was supposed to be out looking for work and would head there and watch movies instead. :D
 
Seems like a bit much. I think you could probably do without delays if you have the right amount of boxes on your SL and SR arrays and they are properly deployed. You will also probably want frontfills and possibly outfills depending on how close people are going to be. The production company you are working with will probably have a go to top to sub ratio, so ask them for advise. If it is a local company chances are they have worked in that venue and know what works.

I'd also ditch the monitor LS9 for an M7. The LS9 is painful to get around on for monitors, but thats just personal preference.

As someone else mentioned model the room and see what works. If you dont want to do that yourself give the room dimensions to a production company and let them spec the system.

For lighting you really need to ask yourself what you really need. Their are tons of cool lights in the lighting world, but you don't necessarily need them for a good show. A pretty standard rig is 60k of Pars upstage and 60K downstage. You can add moving lights if you want as well.
 
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OT, but I saw Supergirl at the Galleria circa 1985. Hmmmm, Helen Slater. :drool:

I had just moved in with my brother and was supposed to be out looking for work and would head there and watch movies instead. :D

OK, that is totally f'ing strange!

I was talking TODAY about Helen Slater with a friend who was the Production Manager for Supergirl. Not a name that has come up in many years.

-k
 
Well, the obvious question is what do the EASE simulations say? Clearly, to do an installation of that complexity and scale without modeling it is a recipe for disaster, not for "absolute clarity and balance." If getting great sound was just a matter of over-spec'ing a bunch of high end gear, sound guys would be unnecessary.

The other thing I was wondering is how you plan to mitigate feedback below 100 Hz with split, delayed clusters in a closed, rectangular room?

-k

The contractor has done plenty of gigs in that space. They have all the architectural data for the room, and the sims have not only been run, the results have been programmed into the Nexo processors already.

That said, I expect to spend a number of hours on setup day, just doing tweaks to the delays, phasing adjustments, and parametric EQs, before I sign off on it (BTW, I AM the chief sound guy for this event, if you haven't figured that out yet- I've been doing this event for 20 years, and have amassed quite a bit of experience with the material and environment over that time).

The clusters (line arrays, actually) aren't producing much of anything below 100 Hz (that's the duty of the subs), so there won't be any bass produced except in the front of the room. There will be enough "pressurization" of the room from the sub bank in the front (in effect, itself a "long line" across the front of the room), that all that's really necessary, is to "refresh" the highs about half-way back in the room with the delay clusters.

Also, the only way you're going to GET feedback below 100 Hz, is to have mics picking up below 100 Hz. The vocal mics, as a general rule, all have low-cut filters engaged as a matter of practice (as will probably most, if not all, the guitar amp mics), and there's nothing from the other instruments or reproduced sound, that's going to be exposing a mic to below 100 Hz either (the bass guitar amps and any keyboards will be direct-input into the board), with the exception of one kick drum (which will itself be damped, internally). Most of the "loud" source material, will be coming from either recorded program, or from samplers and other electronic devices, in any case.

In addition, as I think I mentioned before, we are damping the room with full wall-to-wall carpeting ($14000.00 worth of it!) and velour drapes in front of all hard walls... and with 2000+ people in the room, many of those in costume- damping should at the very least, be fairly decent throughout the room.

To be concise about it: This is not our first rodeo. We've had about the best sounding programming rooms, on average, of any fan-run convention in the country, for many years now (in fact, I'll state that probably NO other fan-run convention has better sounding video/movie presentation spaces, than we do- we actually custom-designed and built our own multi-channel speaker systems, just to optimize their performance in the types of spaces we use them in), and I think we're going to re-set the bar this year. At least if I have anything to say about it, we will.

Regards,
Gordon.
 
The contractor has done plenty of gigs in that space. They have all the architectural data for the room, and the sims have not only been run, the results have been programmed into the Nexo processors already.

That said, I expect to spend a number of hours on setup day, just doing tweaks to the delays, phasing adjustments, and parametric EQs, before I sign off on it (BTW, I AM the chief sound guy for this event, if you haven't figured that out yet- I've been doing this event for 20 years, and have amassed quite a bit of experience with the material and environment over that time).

The clusters (line arrays, actually) aren't producing much of anything below 100 Hz (that's the duty of the subs), so there won't be any bass produced except in the front of the room. There will be enough "pressurization" of the room from the sub bank in the front (in effect, itself a "long line" across the front of the room), that all that's really necessary, is to "refresh" the highs about half-way back in the room with the delay clusters.

Also, the only way you're going to GET feedback below 100 Hz, is to have mics picking up below 100 Hz. The vocal mics, as a general rule, all have low-cut filters engaged as a matter of practice (as will probably most, if not all, the guitar amp mics), and there's nothing from the other instruments or reproduced sound, that's going to be exposing a mic to below 100 Hz either (the bass guitar amps and any keyboards will be direct-input into the board), with the exception of one kick drum (which will itself be damped, internally). Most of the "loud" source material, will be coming from either recorded program, or from samplers and other electronic devices, in any case.

In addition, as I think I mentioned before, we are damping the room with full wall-to-wall carpeting ($14000.00 worth of it!) and velour drapes in front of all hard walls... and with 2000+ people in the room, many of those in costume- damping should at the very least, be fairly decent throughout the room.

To be concise about it: This is not our first rodeo. We've had about the best sounding programming rooms, on average, of any fan-run convention in the country, for many years now (in fact, I'll state that probably NO other fan-run convention has better sounding video/movie presentation spaces, than we do- we actually custom-designed and built our own multi-channel speaker systems, just to optimize their performance in the types of spaces we use them in), and I think we're going to re-set the bar this year. At least if I have anything to say about it, we will.

Regards,
Gordon.

OK, thanks. I guess I misunderstood the purpose of your original question. It sounds like you have things very well under control.

Depending on the number of open mics, I still think you are going to have to watch out about feedback. The first- or second-order HPF on the mics might not be much of a match for the amount of potential LF power and gain you have on tap. But, of course, this is par for the course and can be dealt with.

Let me know when you do your first checks. I'll go out on my porch and listen for it! :)

-k
 
I always enjoy reading your anime convention threads, Gordon! You get to play with some really cool gear. I just wish Atlanta were closer. My oldest son (18) and one of his good friends recently attended a convention here in Dallas and had a blast.

Break a leg and please post some pictures as you can! I mix a little sound at our church and love to see the gear.
 
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