Re-capping with Nichicon Muse caps?

My mind is flooded with rivulets of thought...

I have the Muze Bipolars paralleled with Epcos metallized polypros that add crispness and detail to the midrange and higher.

Bypassing (shunting) 'lytics with small value polyprop's (or other films) is highly recommended for use in sensitive circuits (think input stages, phono preamp circuits, etc., for example), and will also help lower AC ripple currents in power supply filter caps. To do so, just add a small value cap in parallel to the larger 'lytic, by simply soldering them directly to the 'lytics leads. These are also sometimes seen mounted in this 'after-thought' fashion on non-modified OEM boards where there is no mounting hole for the component. For an excellent write-up on this idea, see the 'sidebar box' entitled "Tuning" typically used audio circuits with quality capacitors on page 3 of the following:
Picking Capacitors - Part II

Here is the link to Part I:
Picking Capacitors - Part I

These articles were taken from Audio magazine, Feb. and Mar. 1980, so the info is a little dated, but mostly still pertinent. Part 1 is 8 pages, and Part 2 is 9 pages. Both are very highly informative, and an excellent read, having been well-written by Walter G. Jung and Richard Marsh. I also love the photo of the snob-o-phile's red-tuxedoed butler serving up the caps on a sliver platter!

I have confirmed that adding bypass films (0.33 uF) across the two large (now 15K uF) PS caps of my Don Imlay modified (Thanks Don!), Phase Linear 400 (Series 1, Gen.1). Doing so did in fact reduce measured A/C Ripple Current from (c.) 800mVAC (RMS) to < 20mVAC (RMS). This would seem to be very significant, a 40x reduction. Ask me if this was audible... :dunno:

BTW - How did I choose 0.33uF for a value? I cheated! Bob Carver's 3rd and final version of the PCB (PL14B) for the Series 1 PL-400 added these bypass caps. I used vintage Mullard 'tropical fish' caps for this purpose, but just for looks!
I like the ones with great looking covers. The metallic red cerafines, the green Muse, the gold Nichicon audio caps...I want eye candy when the unit is off. Best way to select a cap.
^ +1 what he said! Too bad I only get to see mine when I go inside (again). It's also a real shame that Elna doesn't pick up on this audiophilla nervosa preference - those dung-colored Simlic II's are only pretty to those that know...

Although I think I prefer the minimalist parts count of his Gen. 1 board (I can almost fully understand the schematic! - with the exception of his soon-to-be-de-facto, and oft-maligned protection circuit), I thought that adding two caps across the PS caps couldn't hurt anytning, and I wanted to test this idea out for myself! You know, somewhere it couldn't possibly do any harm and was easily reversible.

More recently (but still slightly dated) is the 48-page manifesto entitled Capacitor Sound?, which appeared as a 6-part series in Electronics World from July 2002 -Jan. 2003, written by Cyril Bateman...

A cleaned-up version (rather than a hard-to-read scan) of these articles is linked on the page below, as well as three follow-up articles, which I have not yet read...

http://linearaudio.nl/cyril-batemans-capacitor-sound-articles

I don't recall if I got anything out of reading these articles, other than a big headache. I did, however, enjoy marveling at the wealth of test-data provided. These articles have been linked to and discussed on numerous other forums (and probably here on AK as well) in the past. It just seemed to me that there should be some reference to then here in this thread.

Again, I do, however, highly recommend reading the Jung & Marsh articles from Audio, linked above.
------------------
Hedley Lamarr: My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.

Taggart: God darnit, Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.
 
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More on altering cap-values and Voltage Ratings

Strictly speaking, a non polarized should not be used where there is a significant DC difference across the cap.

As for a limited range of available values, in most cases, coupling capacitors can be replaced with the next higher available value and in many designs, they should be increased significantly.
+1 ^ What Said Fred ^

Also, modern 'lytics now come in much smaller packages for the same value as compared to 20 years ago. It is always possible (and preferable, due to longer-life, which is in turn due to the increased headroom) to use the next highest voltage rating: 6.3v --> 10v --> 16v --> 25v --> 35v --> 50v -->63v, etc., and the package may still be smaller. For power supply caps, voltage rating need not be increased (but should NEVER be decreased), however, increasing cap value (by double or triple or more, if space allows) will always yield great benefits.

Also, regarding bipolars, they will generally have higher ESR as compared with the same-valued polar 'lytics and are typically physically larger. If a particular bipolar (aka, non-polar) value is needed but not available, it may be simply constructed by using two polar caps of double the required value, connected in series. Working voltages remain the same. These may legitimately be connected either way -c++c- or +c--c+, however, the later is typically used (reason unknown). However, this should only be considered in last-chance scenarios, as ESR will effectively double as well. Bypassing with a small value film cap (so as to not significantly change the summed cap-value) in parallel across the reverse-series-pair, however, will help mitigate this effect.

Enough typing for now. Time to fire up the soldering iron - I've got a some re-capping to do!

:thmbsp:
 
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I was referring to the number of posts/hour versus the length of time dormant ratio...

So you are looking for a low number with the fraction you are using to decide the #/time. Well this thread http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=83224 asleep for 8½ Years is now up and active. Sorta makes this 8 Month sleeper Brand NEW! Don't you think?

Some folks will do a search for a chunk of gear they get and slap a new post on a necrothread which sparks a whole new discussion. Common happenings on AK since there is not time limit to necroposting and threads do not closed due to age. Find more it is fun.
 
A consolidated thread on one subject is more useful than a bunch of shorter ones with different info.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
For power supply caps, voltage rating need not be increased (but should NEVER be decreased), however, increasing cap value (by double or triple or more, if space allows) will always yield great benefits.

We need to keep in mind the inrush current and transformer capabilities when doubling and tripling the PS cap capacity. This move may "always yield great benefits" but it might burn up the transformer or other parts not designed for such an increase.

Much of your discussion would be welcome in my Capacitor Abyss thread. Be nice to have someone explain the spec sheets to us in simple language as well as compare the Panasonic sheet to the Nichicon sheet since the two companies don't always put the same specs on their respective sheets.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=610004
 
Why powers down ?

^ +1 regarding inrush current. This could be a legitimate concern...

But who ever powers down their gear ?? :)
A consolidated thread on one subject is more useful than a bunch of shorter ones with different info.
^ +1 - I could not agree more, hence the reason for my numerous posts here

But seriously, most gear should have plenty of headroom for at least doubling the power supply caps - excepting for the cheapest el-crapo junk. I do realize that not everyone has a 25-pound transformer hanging off the back of their amp like I do on the Phase Linear 400. And it now has upgraded PS caps, 2.7x larger as compared to stock. So, to play it safe and minimize wear and tear, I built a simple inrush-current-limiting outlet box for it. I took a standard duplex electrical box (a one-outlet & one-light-witch type), and mounted a light bulb socket with a clear incandescent bulb in one of the punch-outs on top (these are available at Loewes, Home Depot, etc.) and mounted a DPDT switch so that the Hot wire either flows in series thru the light bulb (ON) or is bypassed (jumpered) in the OFF position. Before I power it up, I turn the switch to ON and leave it on (which places the bulb in-line and in series with the load) until the bulb dims and I hear Don's added output relay (aka, the de-wump-u-lator) click on, and then I switch it out of the circuit. This effectively limits inrush current, and looks mighty cool, the ever-so short-lived bright flash of light, followed by the sublimely diming glow of the tungsten wire has a totally retro-steam-punk-mad-scientist appeal to it. Completely worth the 10- 15 minutes of time and < $10 to build it, even if just for the show and the ensuing conversation factor. [That reminds me, someday I need to solder-up the voltage- comparator circuit (which compares the voltage on one of the PS caps to a reference, cut-off voltage) that I designed and successfully breadboard-tested (5 years ago) to automate this process, via a 120v relay.] I also leave the Phase powered up 24/7/365.

The tech (AK member dimlay3, aka Don Imlay of WATTS ABUNDANT - highly recommended) who installed the large caps, said that I shouldn't worry about it, and it certainly doesn't seem to mind if I forget to (or am not able to, due to, say, a power-outage) switch the bulb in-line. I also wouldn't worry too much about audiophile gear (which typically includes overs-spec'd everything), nor a similarly over-built 70s-vintage receivers from Marantz, Pioneer, Luxman, etc. However, caution should be used in modern mid-fi or lesser vintage gear: keep you PS caps to double or less or use a light bulb to limit in-rush current for power-up.

And, thank you for the kind words. Yes, I to have a certain gift for being able to explain complicated concepts is simple terms, and I really do treasure that gift. Wanna know something weird? I always feel like l learn much more about the particular topic in question, and my higher-level understanding of the topic become oh-so-much clearer also. So, I do this largely for my own benefit, but I certainly do enjoy knowing that it is helping someone else as well.

And, back to out sidebar discussion. I did a little math. I suppose the 'record' numbers I referred to need to be clarified. After further review, I guess what I was thinking the formula should be would be as follows:

Number of new-posts-after-a-dormant-tread-revival time the length-of-time-dormant divided by #-of-hours-elapsed-since-revival = Post-Revival Activity-Rate Ratio (higher is better).
So, for the "Dream System" thread we have 20 posts * 8.5 yrs / 44 hrs = 3.86
For this thread, we have 21 posts (yeah, I'm gonna count this post to boost the number!) * 0.73 yrs (1 wk short of 8 months) / 18 hrs = 0.852
But, at the time of my 'record?" querry, the numbers were better:
9 posts * 0.73 yrs / 6 hrs = 1.10 (in post~years/hr ???)

So, no, not even close to a record even this week!

But, come on fellas... Is this really a fair fight? I mean, a "Dream System" thread (vs) yet another capacitor thread ???

I should certainly hope that a "Dream System" thread would hit an even more sensitive nerve that another capacitor thread...

That analysis was much more fun than it should have been! At least we now have a formula and some benchmarks!

:lmao:
 
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................

As far as sound ... I think that depends a lot on what was originally installed. Sansui was heavy into Elna, and their circuitry was "tuned" for them.

........


Very interesting. Can you offer links to your source for this information?
 
Welll Dohhh!
Spending Large on Flavour of the Month Caps will certainly 'enhance' the sounds of your Aged Gear..
Or Not :)
IF the cap isn't in the direct signal path.. It won't make audible difference.. unless the original was Broken
 
All Audio, No Attitude

Thank you for your post. Opinions are always welcome here on AK.

Anyone read the AK banner atop every page lately?

At this moment, I have caps in my Mouser basket for an upcoming recap a 1982-vintage JVC turntable, model QL-A51. Total for parts = $6.79, and shipping's gonna set me back another $4.99. The 14 parts in my basket are Nichicon Audio Grade electrolytic capacitors, which is the topic of discussion in this particular thread.

All vintage gear over 25 years old must have its electrolytic caps replaced. The electrolyte inside dries-out and hardens with age. This causes the cap-value to drift, which leads to sonic degradation, unreliability, and unpredictable.and/or erratic and/or intermittent issues, and will ultimately lead to failure of the component. Failure of these components is sometimes accompanied sparks and flames, and will usually take out other, perhaps irreplaceable, components.

You are very correct to state that replacement of certain caps will not make audible differences [caveat: in some systems] unless they are 'broken.' Some of us (especially owners of coveted vintage gear) would like to make a pre-emptive strike to avoid such a catastrophe.

Also, some AKer's systems are (occasionally, quite surprisingly,) highly revealing of very subtle changes, where no audible change was anticipated, and, indeed, sometimes previous to the change, thought to be utterly impossible to affect sonic performance.

All of the above are statements facts, other than my greeting and my query.

Just sayin'.
-------------------------

"A bit cold and pointless, isn't it, my lovely? What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper. Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited."
 
Sansui was heavy into Elna, and their circuitry was "tuned" for them.
Very interesting. Can you offer links to your source for this information?


Quoted from an AK post from a long time poster who I find to be quite knowledgeable in all things Sansui, quoting a former Sansui employee who will remain nameless ...

(Bulletproof source, eh?) <G>

... worked for Sansui during the "Vintage Years" and I remember he specifically told me that many of Sansui's electronics were specially made with values strictly for Sansui's equipment. In other words, electrical item A, with a specific specification number, may not be like item A that you would buy from an electronics firm with the same exact number. Some of the specifications were changed specifically for Sansui ...

Works for me anyway. I've seen a few other similar remarks here and there, now and then. I do know that Elna even back then was a bit of an upgrade item, and it's not unusual to find substitution values that don't match the schematic. Tolerances in tuner sections especially are exceptionally tight, and even an exact replacement part may have problems.

In a perfect world, we'd just leave well enough alone unless something actually blows up, but ... even time will take it's toll. A dry tired cap can't do what it's supposed to do, even if it still "works".

Now ... have I ever rebuilt the same box twice with Nichicon or Panasonic and then with Elna to get a straight out head to head comparison? Hey, I'm crazy, but I'm not THAT crazy. All I can say is I've always had exceptional results with low break in time using the Elna's when available.

Besides, I like dung brown caps! It goes so well with the dung brown Sui boards!
 
Bypassing (shunting) 'lytics with small value polyprop's (or other films) is highly recommended for use in sensitive circuits (think input stages, phono preamp circuits, etc., for example), and will also help lower AC ripple currents in power supply filter caps. To do so, just add a small value cap in parallel to the larger 'lytic, by simply soldering them directly to the 'lytics leads. These are also sometimes seen mounted in this 'after-thought' fashion on non-modified OEM boards where there is no mounting hole for the component. For an excellent write-up on this idea, see the 'sidebar box' entitled "Tuning" typically used audio circuits with quality capacitors on page 3 of the following:
Picking Capacitors - Part II

Here is the link to Part I:
Picking Capacitors - Part I

These articles were taken from Audio magazine, Feb. and Mar. 1980, so the info is a little dated, but mostly still pertinent. Part 1 is 8 pages, and Part 2 is 9 pages. Both are very highly informative, and an excellent read, having been well-written by Walter G. Jung and Richard Marsh. I also love the photo of the snob-o-phile's red-tuxedoed butler serving up the caps on a sliver platter!

I have confirmed that adding bypass films (0.33 uF) across the two large (now 15K uF) PS caps of my Don Imlay modified (Thanks Don!), Phase Linear 400 (Series 1, Gen.1). Doing so did in fact reduce measured A/C Ripple Current from (c.) 800mVAC (RMS) to < 20mVAC (RMS). This would seem to be very significant, a 40x reduction. Ask me if this was audible... :dunno:

BTW - How did I choose 0.33uF for a value? I cheated! Bob Carver's 2nd Gen. and following versions of the board for the Series 1 PL-400 added these bypass caps. I uses vintage Mullard 'tropical fish' caps for this purpose, but just for looks!

^ +1 what he said! Too bad I only get to see mine when I go inside (again). It's also a real shame that Elna doesn't pick up on this audiophilla nervosa preference - those dung-colored Simlic II's are only pretty to those that know...

Although I think I prefer the minimalist parts count of his Gen. 1 board (I can almost fully understand the schematic! - with the exception of his soon-to-be-de-facto, and oft-maligned protection circuit), I thought that adding two caps across the PS caps couldn't hurt anytning, and I wanted to test this idea out for myself! You know, somewhere it couldn't possibly do any harm and was easily reversible.

More recently (but still slightly dated) is the 48-page manifesto entitled Capacitor Sound?, which appeared as a 6-part series in Electronics World from July 2002 -Jan. 2003, written by Cyril Bateman...

A cleaned-up version (rather than a hard-to-read scan) of these articles is linked on the page below, as well as three follow-up articles, which I have not yet read...

http://linearaudio.nl/cyril-batemans-capacitor-sound-articles

I don't recall if I got anything out of reading these articles, other than a big headache. I did, however, enjoy marveling at the wealth of test-data provided. These articles have been linked to and discussed on numerous other forums (and probably here on AK as well) in the past. It just seemed to me that there should be some reference to then here in this thread.

Again, I do, however, highly recommend reading the Jung & Marsh articles from Audio, linked above.
------------------
Hedley Lamarr: My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.

Taggart: God darnit, Mr. Lamarr, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore.



What value do you have for C6 in that PL 400??
 
Speaking of Carver ... here's a C9AV I did recently ...

H9-AV-after.jpg


With upgraded op amps all around, some additional bypass, and of course ...
<drumroll please>

DUNG BROWN CAPS!! :banana:
 
What value do you have for C6 in that PL 400??
According to the schematic for the PL400C board, it should be 47uF 40v. I just happen to have the front panel off - I like to watch the tropical fish swim. No, seriously, I've been meaning to remount my slightly askew meters for a while know and just been lazy about bolting the faceplate back on (no kids or cats or dogs here).

Well, waddya know - they seem to have been swapped-out with a light-blue Xicon 47uF 35v units! I'm not certain if that was Don's handy-work or the previous owner(s) tech(s). They look kinda shiny.

A nice scan of the Service manual is available at The Carver Site. It is a little bit cleaner looking than the one posted up at HiFi Engine.
 
OK thanks skiZo. I like Silmic II as well, seems like most of us do. And I like the brown color and actually find the combination of Silmics with Nichicon PW to be kind of cool in a very understated way. Maybe I am anti-bling, or just weird I don't know.

I was curious about your comment because I have wondered to what degree the designers from that (or any) era account for all of the negative qualities of electrolytics: leakage, etc. Of course they were thinking about uF and voltage. But I wonder if when designing circuits, other than those basic parameters, they considered electolytics as a "perfect capacitor" or whether they made some allowances based on other parameters. Kind of an odd thing to ponder I know...
 
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Wha'chew talkin bout Willis ?

White Oak driver board, eh? Well, no, it's kinda hard to think about something you've never heard of...

I mentioned above that mine has been serviced by AK member dimlay3, Don Imlay, and I think I like what he did to it. This is gonna end up being a long story. I'll try to keep this brief, but it's prolly not gonna happen...

I bought it off ebay for $268.85 + $42.98 s&h = $311.83, which I thought was a good deal, as it also included a simply gorgeous original walnut-grained cabinet, which I thought I'd sell immediately, to recoup some $. The seller had posted some nice photos including photos of the blue-illuminated meters.

I thought that the blue meters were a sure sign that someone else had been inside before. The problem with that is that there are only 2 or 3 qualified Phase Tech's around anymore (or, at least that I was able to locate). From one of my early emails to Don:
"[It's] more than likely that someone's already been inside her before, and that probably means the repair job probably wasn't done right and then this thing would be a TIME BOMB, right?"
The assumption was that this was going to need to have all output transistors replaced, and possible some driver board bits as well. So, I thought I'd save myself one shipping charge (and possible molestation along the way) by having shipped right to a qualified tech. I also had planned on adding Don's output-relay board mod in any case (perhaps DIY after another qualified tech replaced the outputs, etc.), which mounts right to the output binding posts - to protect my speakers from the Flame Linear's infamously nasty habit of sending speaker drivers thru the wall as it failed, by throwing 160 VDC into them. :yikes: I just checked my rails: +/- 81.9 VDC !

So. it seemed like a good idea to me to just let Don have at it, as he was willing to have the unit shpped directly to him. So far, so good...

Well, the seller was unwilling to re-pack the amp and cabinet separately, and the cabinet arrived at Don's as pieces and sawdust. A real shame. Also, one corner of the faceplate was bent (quite a feat - that puppy is thick). And, as suspected, there was evidence of a spectacular, flame-related failure. But the blue-meters were original (they had a blue film insert between the lamps and the meters), as mine was a very earlier unit, with 1972 date codes on the still-original outputs of non-repaired channel. Some pics from Don:

IMG_0235 (Small).JPG meter with blue film.jpg left ch output.jpg pl400c PCB foil.jpg distorted output.jpg

From Don: "My suggestion would be all new outputs, [PS] capacitors and the output relay. Along the way I can see about straightening the panel."

Flat rate repair ............. $199
Output relay board with
new input/output jacks ... $89
New DC filter caps ......... $56
Freight & secure packing. $40
----------------------------------
Total .......................... $384

In the meantime, I tore the seller a new one and managed a $175 refund and an apology - but none of that brought the cabinet back to life.

Don get her all fixed up and shipped out to me. The big-honkin' meters arrived a mess! Don said that they had arrived a mess at his place (and had photos), and the he wasn't gonna mess with them. I spent days delicately re-bending the meter-needles, which had developed complex 3-D bends, thanks to the good ol' USPS. Well, I managed to get them proper again and got her buttoned up.

All good and sounding wonderful ever since. This beast throws 440 wpc into 4 ohms all day while running cool. See Don's bench test attached below.

View attachment Phase Linear 400 Bench Test.doc

I also added some previously mentioned 0.33 uF Mullard tropical fish bypass caps across the PS caps, and this dropped AC ripple from (c.) 800mV to < 20 mV.

That's the short version. So I'm into this project for:

Ebay seller ..... $311.83
Partial refund <$175.00>
Don's service .. $384.00
----------------------------
..................... $520.83

Which I still think is a bargain. So, why should I want to replace the board on a fully restored and working unit. And, more importantly, why would I want to put any more money into this when it already sounds WAY better than any 43-year-old amp has any right to?

BUT, of course, someday I'll perhaps give some more thought into ditching those 20-odd or so blasted ceramic caps, from each channel, and swapping in some films for a few dollars.

This still is a re-cap thread after all! :thmbsp:

Sorry, I had no intention of hijacking this thread.

@laatsch55 - If you'd like, post a link to a thread regarding that 'White Oak board,' I probably like to have a look at it. But, please don't pitch it to me here and keep that post short, as we prepare to return to our viewers to their regularly scheduled program!
 
A Word of Caution !

... just can't get enough of it ... the BROWN SOUND!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9mB0OGWkYE

^ WARNING !!! ^ Turn your damn volume down before cueing this one up !
:jawdrop:

I just caused a brown-out in the effin' building! Maybe on the whole block! SERIOUSLY !

The Velodyne HGS servo-controlled subwoofer can be frightening. I had my volume a click or two down from full, because I had just completed a re-cap my teeny KEF C-15s and was giving them a workout. I neglected to turn it back down!

Ah, the Velodyne...! I only have 'the baby' HGS-10 (10"), which is rated at 1250W-RMS and 2000W peak. I do BELIEVE those ratings! At he very start of this clip. there is a 'click.' As this started playing, the lights instantly dimmed down to almost completely BLACK, my monitor was starting to shut-down (for a split-second), and this was followed instantly by a thunder-crack impulse! The lights returned to full brightness instantly. That 'click' at the beginning was the real brown noise for me!

Something like this has happened only once before. This was right after I got the amp-unit back from being serviced by Velodyne (another long story). Evidently, when I reconnected the accelerometer to the amp, I had accidently reversed its polarity. More about the accelerometer and servo-system from Velodyne:

"This patented Velodyne technology utilizes a tiny sealed accelerometer that is mounted to the voice coil, measuring the actual motion of the speaker cone 3,500 times a second. The data is fed into a processor where it is compared to the input signal and any discrepancies are corrected instantaneously." And, it actually does function as described.

Upon turning the unit back on, the applied-signal (~near zero~) and the accelerometer's data (1/~near zero ~) were 180 degrees out of phase, so the servo circuitry attempted to correct this error by applying full-power nearly instantaneously and a similar sort of phenomenon happened: the lights suddenly (nearly-instantly) dimmed to near black, followed by the thunder-crack. That was the end of that driver. Afterward, I was advised to send the whole unit back to the shop for service. I was informed that the amp unit was again replaced (under warranty!), and that it had annihilated the spider at the base of the driver! It was quite shockingly impressive, but costly (they put he woofer replacement cost on me, because only the recently serviced amp was under warranty). However, I'm pretty sure that this isn't the first time they had seen this and knew exactly what had happened! Excellent customer service! It wasn't my fault they didn't put a polarized connector on the damn thing!

Thank goodness nothing blew-up this time! But I did just about crap my pants, as was intended!

The Velodyne servo-controlled subs are very highly recommended. Please do yourself a favor and audition one if you have never heard one! Remarkable technology!

BTW - Don't get me wrong on the Elna's! I think they are FANTISTIC caps and I do generally prefer them to the Nichicon's, IF Mouser's got 'em in the value that I need! I also think that Panasonic make some mighty fine capacitors. I usually end up with a 50/50 mix of Elna's and Nichicon FGs & KWs and some FWs for non-signal path locations. Just sayin' that I really do like the looks of Black on Gold and Gold on Black.
 
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